New Year's Surprise: Habs Sign Gorges to 6 Year Extension
by Kevin van Steendelaar on Jan 1, 2012 7:57 PM EST
in Habs Rumours and Signings
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PrintThere were a lot of questions and concerns when the Montreal Canadiens signed restricted free agent (RFA) Josh Gorges to a one year deal over the summer.
With the young rearguard then given potential UFA status this July, many fans were fuming on such a short deal for a valuable asset in the organization. The case for Habs GM Pierre Gauthier was that Gorges' rebuilt knee was yet to be proven. His case was tarnished with Andrei Markov getting a three-year deal, and his "set back" to his knee has yet to generate NHL game time.
In Gorges' case this was an honor agreement between Gorges, his agent Kevin Epp and the Canadiens, which can always backfire for either party. Once the 27-year-old blueliner put in some quality effort and everything was OK medically, further negotiations would transpire. A contract extension is a rarity with the Canadiens as an unwritten company policy, with most negotiations happening after the season is over.
It would seem that in this case it worked. Gorges came up with his side of the bargain ten fold, leading the club in plus/minus and leading the NHL in blocked shots. The Canadiens held up their end, announcing a six-year contract extension this afternoon.
Terms of the deal were not disclosed by the club, but it is being reported at an average of $3.9 million per season. Renaud Lavoie of RDS tweeted that there is a no-trade clause in the first year of the deal, and a limited NTC in the following years. The deal was apparently hammered out between Christmas and New Years, but wasn't formally announced until today.
The deal solidifies a strong Canadiens defensive corps for the future, especially provided Markov makes a healthy return. Tomas Kaberle is under contract for two more seasons, and could be kept on as a precautionary measure. RFA's P.K. Subban and Alexei Emelin will be the Habs GM's next "to-do" items on the blue line.
The signing of Gorges will also be a huge indicator in a new deal for Carey Price. With his best friend on the team, and fellow BC native, locked up long term, one has to think a deal for the Habs netminder isn't too far behind.
Anyone here remember Craig Rivet?
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Assuming he’d still get 2.5 for this season last summer if they signed him to this long-term deal then the cap savings would be just .2 million a season (3.7).
Whether Gorges would earn so much last summer is an open question, probably much less. But that would have meant investing a major risk premimium on whether he can come back from injury just as good. It turned out that he came back to play the best hockey of his career.
So they lost the chance for an optimal solution in the pursuit of a less risky one. He could have also been in the same situation as Markov right now.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
Now what if it would have been Gorges’ injury that did not heel properly and Markov who would not have missed a game so far. Would it still have been an error in judgement by Gauthier to have proceded the way he did?
Gauthier would still have been fried, either way.
Exactly, I don’t I’d have played it any differently in PG’s situation. I’m just glad he’s upped his game to the point where I’d be totally comfortable with him as the 3rd defenseman in the lineup.
Those that think its bad because he doesn’t add offense or a physical element are neglecting the big value in how he’s a monster penalty killer.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
by Stephan Cooper on Jan 1, 2012 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Love the deal. Leafs fans hating it makes me like it even more.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 1, 2012 8:53 PM EST reply actions
I would have to say that if Markov had been there for the entire year and Gorges was still recovering we would be looking at a whole different season. One thing is for sure is that Campoli and Kaberle would not be on the team and we would see PK have a much different year not having to carry the team’s offense.
by Silvertip on Jan 1, 2012 9:10 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Well Campoli won’t be around long, but I see the Habs having to drop him to the Bulldogs and recall him in order to get him moved. He’s got little trade value and the only way a serious team takes a shot at him is if the price is super cheap.
I could see him grabbing a mid round pick at the deadline. Teams are always looking for defensive depth at that point.
by JoeRubble on Jan 1, 2012 11:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s not impossible that could fetch a fifth or sixth rounder from a desperate club, but having watched him play this season, I doubt that a D-men not good enough to crack the top 6 of this club has much worth.
He’s a PP player and puck mover that provides depth at a decent price. He’ll probably move at the deadline I could see a team like the Bruins or Vancouver taking a risk on him.
While he is getting a lot of negative talk about his cap hit, Kaberle is probably the one who will move. Sure 4.5 mil is high, but he also provided spark to the PK and isn’t a liability on the bottom 4. Lots of teams should have interest seeing how he turned it around with the Habs.
Long term
Markov-Subban
Emelin-Gorges
Price
as the defensive core should be pretty solid, especially with a decent pipeline behind them. The big issue is finally getting Markov back into the lineup.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
I’d trade Subban to Nashville for Ryan Suter, straight up. Preds save some cash on a potential Suter UFA deal, and use it to sign Weber. Habs get a D-man (signed, hopefully) who is as good if not better than Markov at his peak.
I don’t see how Suter is better than Markov at his peak (remember that Markov may be the best PP quarterback on Earth on top of his considerable even-strength abilities), and for that matter, I’m entirely unconvinced that he’s better than Subban right now, let alone in the short-to-middle term.
Suter is definitely nowhere as spectacular as Markov or Subban, but at even strength he’s an extremely calming presence. He’s a top pairing D-man on every team in the league. I don’t have great faith in Subban’s potential. I’d bet that he’s gone from Montreal within three seasons, maybe less. I’ve never seen a player learn so little from his own glaring mistakes. It’s very concerning to me.
Leaving aside a different opinion on Subban, You’re going to get far more value from him whose RFA for 4 more years than Suter, whose on the edge of a big payday.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
by Stephan Cooper on Jan 1, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
I understand that, and with that Suter would have to come signed and sealed. All said, I’d make the risk. if Suter came signed, only. RS, with the unknown CBA status, would settle for 6M. Subban, some would argue, is in line for 5M starting next year, even as an RFA. I’ll take that tradeoff.
Good as he is, I’ll be shocked if Subban makes 5M coming off his ELC, unless the term is so long as to buy several UFA years. He doesn’t even have arbitration rights. What’s likely to happen is a 1- to 2- year contract for very reasonable money.
Look at BUF’s Tyler Myers deal as a gauge. Doubt Habs will extend Subban for less than what Josh just got, over 3 years.
The Myers contract is 7 years long, so since Myers has 2 seasons of experience, it includes two UFA years.
If Subban signs for only 3 years, which would be all RFA years, he better not be making 5 million. If his term is so long as to buy UFA years he might make that much, but it doesn’t seem to be what the Habs do with their RFAs, historically.
Very true, but the Habs, in some respects, just deviated from precedence with the JG contract.
I think the Myers contract includes more than just 2 UFA seasons bought up going forward. ELC’s last three pro seasons. Myers was drafted in 2008, Subban in 2007. In that sense, Myers would be a RFA until after the 2017-18, meaning that BUF actually bought up only one UFA, as Myers would turn 28 in 2018.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=94206
Subban, drafted earlier, but starting his pro career later, used up his first year of eligibility in the playoffs in 2009-10. The comparitives are open to discussion. But if P.K, were to sign this summer for three years, he would then have one year left of UFA staus come 2015-16.
Butting in mid-way through the discussion
I think you’re wrong about Myers, Robert. This years is the last year of his ELC because Buffalo played him in the NHL as a 19 year-old in 09-10. The first 4 years of his extension are RFA years (12-13, 13-14, 14-15, 15-16). The 2015-16 season will be his 7th NHL season, so he would have been an UFA for 16-17, 17-18, 18-19.
That comes up with 3 UFA seasons, which is different than what MathMan has. I think he forgot that the 7 year extension doesn’t go into effect until next season and Myers is in the last year of his ELC.
Subban’s entry-level contract started at the same time as Myers since Buffalo had Myers turn pro early (though his eligibility wasn’t burned because of the playoffs, the ELC clock starts ticking for players graduated from major junior hockey whether they play in the AHL or NHL). Like you said, he has 4 years of restricted free agency seasons left and then it’s clear sailing.
Sorry Roke, the Myers contract is not an extension.
While you are correct in stating that this is the third year of his ELC, the Myers deal with BUF is seven full seasons beginning with 2012-13.
I’m confused. I’m using the term “contract extension” the way it is used in reports, a player re-signing with a team before he hits free agency which, in the NHL, goes into effect once their current contract is up.
With it starting in 2012-13 the first 4 years are RFA years, the last 3 UFA since UFA eligibility depends on either age or accruing 7 seasons.
I should add that by “Free agency” I generally mean restricted & unrestricted, though it tends to be used in the summer for players who are restricted and out of contract.
Nevermind that Subban is a top-pairing defenseman right now. His only problem is that his mistakes get all the press because Price hasn’t saved any of them, so they end up on highlight reels.
I have to agree with that. Subban has been playing well enough this year to be on the top two of almost any NHL team. He will never be a Neidermeyer type player, but he will be very good, make no mistake. If the Habs give him up for a player who just doesn’t have a similar type of potential or let him walk away, it will be one of their great mistakes.
You must mean that you disagree.
Until he learns lessons in composure, team first goals, and prudence in picking his spots, the only potential I see in Subban is for him to be the next Brisebois or Tom Kurvers.
As I see him now, he’s got balls and yap as big as Chris Pronger, but turtles like Claude Lemieux when it comes time to backing it up. His teammates are tiring of covering his back, and it shows on the ice. Subban has the talent to be a stud when it comes to eating up minutes on the ice, but he is alienating his own teammates with his shenanigans.
He has been sent to the press box last year and again recently. His conduct offends teammates. He refuses to learn.
He’s the new star on the block. He’s Justin Bieber lectutring Bruce Springsteen on how to be a rock legend.
He’s got talent, but he’s loaded with delusions. Telltale sign: He’s still performing the “low five” routine with Price, after a single win in the last 8 games.
Well, I have to agree with you that he has a lot of maturing to do. I think that he needs a strong hand to guide him because his shenanigans are getting old. That being said, in spite of all this he has eaten up minutes and plays a strong game in spite of all that. That is the major problem with the Canadiens’ organization in the past 6-7 years; no structure for young players. I remember hanging with several players on London Knights back in the day, and those who made it in the NHL were those who buckled down and got the job done. Some did it by themselves and others were forced to do it. PK IMO is one of those who would have to be forced to do it.
You put PK in a very tightly regimented organization like the Red Wings and you would have a top flight D-Man for the next 15-20 years. Its sad that the Habs don’t have that type of discipline in force even though they did back in the Bowman days.
There is a lot of supposition here. I don’t think any of us spend enough time around PK to know about any personal issues or issues with teammates. And as for refusing to learn, if that were true, how has he managed to become a top-2 d-man in the NHL?
by Hunter Durfee on Jan 3, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
I know nothing of the goings on in the room.
There is one thing I know: go back to every single game played by the habs since the beginning of February last season. Watch every game. Every one of these games, Subban is sent on the ice against the best player the opposition can throw at us.
This is a pattern that has survived a coaching change. This is why I don’t believe for a single second there is a “problem” with Subban.
Can he play better? Of course! He’s 22! To quote a favourite blogger of mine, “defensemen develop by sundial”. Gorges became a regular on the Habs’s blue at 23, and then was sent sparingly against tough competition, seeing his assignation get gradually tougher as time went by. Only last year, at 26, was he at long last a trusted tough minutes player. Subban had 35 games or so with Alexandre Picard, then a month with Gill and then off he was against the Crosby and Ovechkin and whoelse.
This is an authentic homerun and the kid is, at worst, a Bouwmeester kind of player. And he ain’t gettin UFA money for another 3 years!
by Olivier on Jan 3, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, you don’t need to tell me, that’s for sure. I didn’t get a Subban jersey expecting him to leave any time soon.
by Hunter Durfee on Jan 3, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Also, as tone isn’t clear on the internet, and I used an expression that may be regional, I just wanted to clarify that I agree with everything you said.
by Hunter Durfee on Jan 3, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
I would do that deal in a New York minute. Suter is a blue chip D-man who would solidify our D for the next decade or so. Fact of the matter is that I doubt that Nashville would do that deal unless there was some leftover gratefulness for the Sergei deal. Bringing Suter over would also force the Habs to trade or bury Gomez in the minors along with keeping Kaberle to bring the secondary PP unit up to snuff after the loss of Subban. That being said, Markov (if he ever gets back) and Suter could very well be one of the best top pairing in the east. They could also be the highest paid going over 12 million for the pair.
I don’t know why people keep putting Markov and Subban together all the time I really don’t see those guys as compatible. I see Emelin and Markov making a terrific pairing and Subban Gorges being very competent. And even Emelin Gorges doesn’t thrill me sure that line could shut them down but…what else? Emelin has some limited offensive potential but beyond that…
by Silvertip on Jan 3, 2012 3:49 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Based on the “attitude” that PK has been displaying of late I really think the Habs have to think seriously about any offers on him that make sense. Suter certainly fits that category. Back to Subban and “attitude”….I reference his pressbox comments “embarassed”…“put the blame on me” statements but does little to rectify that. Stupid penalties, bad mouthing, dives, horrible giveaways that end up in the back of the net time and again. These are things that get on fellow team-mates nerves…even more so when you are in a consistent lose mode. He gives off the “big deal” attidude or no skin off my nose while its burning the team. Every time he says well you can blame it one me and I’ll carry the load…..his team wants to say damm right….you screwed up again big shot. I just think the act is wearing thin. There is no doubt this kid has a load of talent. But somebody has gotten into his head this year…maybe he’s seeing that big payday down the road….maybe he’s reading all that hype created by his 2nd half performance last year. But that’s 2 different guys and I want the 2nd half 2010-11 Subbban over this wreck in 11-12. Yes he’s playing a ton of minutes….but they are not nearly the quality minutes we saw a year ago. ( sorry for the spelling….too passionate about my Habs)
"It's only through change we learn to grow".
Hahahahahahaha
No.
Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
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by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 2, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
This Subban talk sounds very familiar to the discussion around Price 2 seasons ago.
Anytime assumptions of how the room feels about a player and his perception and perceived attitude by fans is the basis for a 22 year old being traded I zone it out.
If Subban is immature with the triple low 5, what does that make Price? I mean Carey Price was petulant, immature, not liked in the room (remember, the team played harder in front of Halak because the guys in the room like Jaro better), etc, etc.
All reactionary. None of this is tangible. The kid plays the top opposition EVERY night and has 120 NHL games on his resume. The Habs traded a player because of his attitude and immaturity once before. His name was Chris Chelios.
I want tangible evidence that his attitude is destructive. I want tangible evidence that he is disliked (Kevin and I can both attest to how much Carey Price loves him) because Chris Boucher and Olivier provide tangible evidence of how good a player he is on the ice. So do my eyes and Fenwick and zone starts.
No different than the patience I had with Carey Price. You don’t trade players based on an outsiders perspective and perception. You deal them based on their on ice play and an insiders perspective.
by Chris Boyle on Jan 2, 2012 10:12 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions 2 recs
There is a difference between wanting to trade away price for a pick after one average season. And trading a budding offensive D-man with attitude problems with a player who has proven himself to be one one the NHL’s best at a very young age. Face it, this is mostly a pipe-dream anyways. Suter is worth more than Subban at any time even when Suter is on a slump and Subban is riding high.
Salary is a factor in a trade like that though. Would you rather have Subban + Gorges or Suter for the next 3 seasons?
How much does Weber have to do with Suter’s success? Remember when everybody thought Komisarek was a top pairing defenseman.
There are plenty of factors that don’t make this type of deal a slam dunk. This isn’t even factoring in what Subban will look like at 26 or 27.
I think I will take my chances with Subban for another 4-5 years at a depressed salary.
by Chris Boyle on Jan 2, 2012 11:59 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don’t remember where it was, but There was a WOWY analysis I read a while back for the Predators. Weber with non-Suter partners performed worse than Suter with non-Weber partners for what it’s worth. I assume the matchups they had when they were split would contribute to some of the difference.
For a short time this season I was hoping the Habs could sign Suter to pair him with Subban but I don’t think it works out unless you hurt the forward depth a fair bit what with having to re-sign Pacioretty after next season and Eller probably taking a short-term deal this summer.
Well, Eller and Desharnais look like they are progressing enough to warrant Gomez’s departure in the summer.
Yeah, I have a spreadsheet with the Habs’ salary situation this season and commitments for next season. The progression of Eller and Desharnais has me assuming Gomez is gone if the Habs can get a defensive guy who can actually play. Even then I don’t think Suter’s much of a possibility what with the Habs being a mess and some flexibility needed to re-sign Pacioretty.
Though I guess it could happen. I assumed Montreal had no hope of signing Cole in the summer and that happened somehow.
Well we strongly suspected that might happen, but do they really? The Habs are still pretty much the worst possession club in the league in Gomez’s absence.
There’s still 40+ largely-now-meaningless games for them to take that step, but I don’t think they’re there yet. Mind you, if Randy could stop screwing around with his lines…
I think Eller and Desharnais backed by a competent 2nd pairing while Plekanec has a strong two-way winger like Gionta might be able to do the job.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
by Stephan Cooper on Jan 2, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Do the job as in “hold on”, or do the job as in “52%+ possession” like we had at the start of the season?
And what happens when someone gets injured?
That depends on the supporting cast. I think 52% is possible with that center line in a year’s time, If say Plekanec is backed by Subban and Eller backed by Markov.
The other issue is that Montreal’s hand is probably going to be forced this offseason. Its dump Gomez or give up on having other pieces you need going forward. I doubt Gomez is the biggest factor in the possession going south, a lot of it seems to be just players playing worse then they were at the start of the season. Its just too big of a fall.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
by Stephan Cooper on Jan 3, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t fully understand the logic that it’s wise to not sign him long term last summer but it is on Jan 1. He still has a lot of time to get hurt in the remainder of this year. If you’re going to wait until his UFA years come up to sign him long term, you wait until the offseason starts, IMO.
For Josh’s sake, I hope a large amount of his contract is a signing bonus paid out on July 1st, because a decent portion of his next six years of salary is going to be rolled back.
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So Subban and Plekanec apparently fought in practice. I guess it’s time to trade Subban for Niinimaa Ryan Whitney for the whole addition by subtraction thing and to show management’s support for their #1 centre.
And support the move based on chemistry and then complain about the move for the next decade based on talent.
by Chris Boyle on Jan 2, 2012 12:58 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Honest question of anyone calling for a trade
When is the last time a trade happened due to ‘attitude reasons’ that actually worked out? Seriously. Name one.
Even worse, name one that’s worked out for Montreal.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 2, 2012 3:00 PM EST reply actions
Chelios, Ribeiro, Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn etc. etc.
The only one I can think of that was positive was Corson for Damphousse.
Don’t forget Claude Lemieux for Sylvain Turgeon.
Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
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by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 2, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Craig Rivet
Guy was a total debbie downer in the locker room. :p
Kevin van Steendelaar
http://www.twitter.com/kvansteendelaar
but don't forget...
http://www.twitter.com/HabsEOTP
by Kevin van Steendelaar on Jan 2, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve got to wonder, why does Montreal seem to develop so many players with attitude issues? Even ignoring guys whose activities or attitudes force them out of town (Kostitsyn, Grabovski or someone like Ribeiro), you have guys like Pacioretty from last year (and even this year, with his ban) who aren’t always exactly model prospects.
I want to blame the media and how prone fans are to turning everyone into a hero, but you don’t get Toronto prospects who turn out quite as crazy. Then again, I’m not sure how many prospects they had to display the last few years.
They don’t. It’s total BS. Everything in Montreal is just blown out of proportion. No matter what Leafs fans say, no where in North America is the microscope on the players so powerful as Montreal.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 2, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Ribs hadn’t been an ‘attitude problem’ for the Habs for a couple of years. He had a down year in performance and Gainey saw Plekanec as his successor and sold low.
Grabovski leaving the team in Phoenix and Sergei’s Hamilton reproting issues were about the only ‘attitude’ issues that actually we can pinpoint to actions affecting the team. The rest is all just hearsay.
Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.
For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.
That is simple while the GM treats communications from the team like its the cold war and the Habs are a bunch of ICBMs their players do not have strong chaperoning that other teams do. I wouldn’t say that we are the only team to do so though. Let’s face it these guys make huge money are are mostly young rich and…well hockey players and they have the ills of the breed. I am a big proponent of having players receiving more discipline and rules but that is not conducive to a great team experience. I think that a big source of problems in Montreal is that fourth line players receive superstar level attention it’s hard to reign these guys in when the attention they get is so intense
by Silvertip on Jan 2, 2012 8:21 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Why does Montreal have the only team in hockey – nay, all of pro sports – where players get involved in skirmishes during practice?
So, the org should trade Sooby cause he’s got interpersonal issues. Yes, of course. That makes a ton of sense, in particular if there is a perception that his value is impaired by these issues.
That, my friends, is sound asset management.
At the end of the day, every player on the team is tradeable. Every single one, without exception. The problem arises when the club’s view of that player’s value is inordinately difficult, if not impossible, to reap in return.
With those two arguably intertwined considerations in mind, I’ll climb the Bell Centre rafters dressed only in a pink tutu if Poindexter Bentley Subban is traded away in the next five years.
And nobody wants to see that.
The tutu, that is.
Why does Montreal have the only team in hockey – nay, all of pro sports – where players get involved in skirmishes during practice?
They’re not. They’re the only team for which this becomes front-page news.
Yeah, this happens all the time elsewhere.
Writer for http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/
by Stephan Cooper on Jan 2, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
It certainly does
Kevin van Steendelaar
http://www.twitter.com/kvansteendelaar
but don't forget...
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Jan 2, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Saw something interesting brought up on HFBoards: because Gorges is on a one-year contract, this is literally the earliest he could legally be re-signed.
by MathMan on Jan 2, 2012 7:00 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
That’s the best thing about it.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 2, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Love...
…or hate McGuire, Ferraro is no McGuire.
And it’s painfully obvious.
100% off-topic
A soccer article about Liverpool’s scoring woes this season had an interesting quote:
In an interview in The Blizzard the Norway manager Egil Olsen notes that three-quarters of games are won by the side who had more shots and explains that he abandoned his attempts to quantify how good a chance was because it yielded almost identical results.
At this point in time soccer data in the major leagues is a lot better than the NHL’s so it’s interesting to see that at least one person in that sport has decided not to pursue the shot quality golden egg. If it’s difficult to get meaningful shot quality data in soccer the data for hockey is an awfully long way off.
Of course, I forgot the article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jan/03/the-question-liverpool-home-form?CMP=twt_gu
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