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The Case for Carey

MONTREAL, CANADA - APRIL 26:  Carey Price #31 of the Montreal Canadiens makes a right pad save with Nathan Horton #18 of the Boston Bruins skating in looking for a rebound in Game Six of the Eastern Conference Quarterfinals during the 2011 NHL Stanley Cup Playoffs at the Bell Centre on April 26, 2011 in Montreal, Canada.  (Photo by Phillip MacCallum/Getty Images)

In June, when the playoffs are done, it is all but a certainty that Tim Thomas will win his second Vezina Trophy in 3 years, and by all accounts (my own included) he deserves it. He's posted a league record save percentage on a team that gives up a lot of shots, although they are defensively sound. However despite his stellar numbers, I do not think Tim Thomas stands alone atop the most dominant goaltenders in the NHL this season.

At first when I started looking at the statistics at face value, I did not think there was any argument to be made against Thomas winning the Vezina aside from the obvious, that he did not play as often as the prototypical franchise goaltender is expected to in today's NHL. That is when I discovered a fairly new section of statistical breakdowns on NHL.com player profile pages called 'splits'. While by no means definitive, I think a case can be made that Carey Price, put up a performance significant enough to challenge Thomas.

Star-divide

Before we get to the statistics, let's get the non-measurable arguments out of the way. It's impossible to quantify these arguments but I believe they have a significant place in evaluating performance. I think most people will agree that it is much more difficult to be a goaltender in Montreal than anywhere else in the league, certainly much more difficult that in Boston. The pressure to win in Montreal is intense, and the goalie gets the brunt of the blame for loses, along with the lion's share of the glory for wins. I think we can also agree that no player in the entire National Hockey League was under more pressure to succeed than Carey Price was this season considering the trade of Jaroslav Halak after his dominant post season performance.

This year was the most important of Price's young career, and failure could have defined his career in Montreal, even ended it. To succeed under these circumstances, and not just to have a good year but a great one, takes a special kind of mental toughness that is especially rare, even for elite goaltenders in the NHL. I think it is important to keep these factors in mind when looking at the statistics.

Now for the stats. We will start with Tim Thomas. The breakdown I found most interesting was the goaltender's records vs opponents, broken down by team record. Here are Thomas's stats from NHL.com:

Tim_thomas_medium

As we can see; from this table the largest portion of Thomas' games played, 26 out of his 57 or 45.6% comes against the bottom 1/3 of the league. The largest segment of Thomas' wins, 17 of 35 or 48.6% also come in this section, the bottom 1/3 of NHL teams that he faced. Thomas also faced 808 of his 1811 shots against by the bottom 1/3 of the NHL, a whopping 44.6%. I think we can all agree that it is more difficult for a goaltender to face good teams than bad ones, and more difficult to play more often than less often. A goalie who rarely faces the best teams in the league compared to his contemporaries will get less worn down over the course of a season, and therefore have better looking statistics overall.

It is a general consensus around the NHL that the Western Conference is the stronger one, so it naturally follows that facing Western Conference playoff teams would be the toughest challenge for goaltenders this year (a big thanks to Chris Topham of Lions in Winter for inspiring this comparison with his excellent article found here). How did Tim Thomas fair? A 3-4-1 record with a .938 SVP. A losing record but spectacular numbers.

Now let's look at Price's breakdown from NHL.com:

Carey_price_medium

As you can see; Carey Price also played 26 games against the bottom 1/3 of the NHL. The difference however is that Price played 72 games this season, not 57. His 26 games against the bottom of the league account for just 36.1% of his total games played, and his 13 wins in those games account for 34.2% of his 38 total wins. The big departure between Carey Price and Tim Thomas however, is that Price played the largest chunk of his season against the top 1/3 of the league, 27 of his 72 games, 37.5%. He also recorded his largest portion of wins in that section, 14 of 38, or 36.8%. It is also interesting to note that Price was started every time his team faced an opponent in the top 1/3. The same can not be said for Thomas.

Price played a whopping 46 games against the top 2/3 of the NHL, Thomas played a mere 31. Price recorded 25 wins to Thomas's 18 against the top 2/3 of the league. Price also faced the largest portion of his total shots against while facing the toughest competition. 924 of the total 2147 shots Carey Price faced this year, or 43.1% were fired by the top 1/3 of the NHL's teams, as compared to just 698/2147 being fired by the bottom 1/3, or 32.5%. Price played and excelled against the top competition in the NHL more often than Tim Thomas did. He had a harder job, simply stated.

Now applying the same logic to Price, that the Western Conference is the toughest competition, and those that made the playoffs are obviously the elite of that conference, let's see how Price did. Against the Western playoff teams, Price went 6-2-1 with a .954 SVP. So against the toughest competition, again Carey Price played more, and better than Tim Thomas, with better results. Price was also the chosen goaltender in every match between the Canadiens and a Western powerhouse, while Tuukka Rask was started in several of Boston's games.

Another area where statistics show Carey Price to be in a league of his own, is how much time he was on the ice shorthanded. I think we can all agree that the most difficult time to be a goaltender is while your team is shorthanded. On average you face more shots and the shots are better quality. The following chart can be hard to read, but I'll explain it:

Goalie_chart_medium

The x-axis is the most important part of this chart, as it shows the amount of shorthanded time on ice (TOI) each goaltender was forced to play this season. This is contrasted with the number of wins a goaltender achieved on the y-axis, the total TOI of the goaltender as the radius of the circle that represents them, and the save percentage they achieved as the colour of the circle, the bluer the better. So by this chart, the further left, the further up, the bigger your circle, and the bluer it is, the more impressive your season.

It is quite clear by these parameters Price stands completely alone. There's a cluster of elite goalies significantly far behind him in Roberto Luongo, Marc-Andre Fleury, Cam Ward, Pekka Rinne and Ilya Bryzgalov, and then Tim Thomas is more than half way back the chart with goalies like Jonathan Quick, Corey Crawford and Antti Niemi. It seems very obvious at this point that Carey Price had a higher degree of difficulty this season than any of his peers, and in spite of this excelled beyond most of them in overall stats.

It is important to note that in surface stats Thomas does fly by Price, and I do believe he will receive the Vezina. I think many put too much weight into surface numbers when it comes to goaltending. To me, the non-statistical factors, combined with the amount of time Price has played this season compared to Thomas make Price's season more impressive. Food for thought going into the playoffs, perhaps the Bruins don't actually have superior goaltending.

The full splits stat page for Carey Price is here.

The full splits stat page for Tim Thomas is here.

Poll
Who would you cast your ballot for in Vezina voting?
Tim Thomas
142 votes
Carey Price
498 votes

640 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 74 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Excellent analysis Andrew. This article should be mandatory reading for all hockey writers.

by Ashok11 on Apr 12, 2011 6:32 PM EDT reply actions  

That means a lot, thank you very very much.

I’m hoping that others like Chris Boyle, MathMan and Olivier contribute in the comments with things like scoring chances for both teams and goal supper etc. Some of that stuff I didn’t have time to find, and not being able to read French makes it difficult to navigate Olivier’s great website.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hats off to you Andrew, you succeeeded in changing my vote!

The case you make is expertly detailed, and I echo Ashok’s sentiments.

by Robert L on Apr 12, 2011 6:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks a ton, Robert!!

I wonder what Bruins fans think?

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably that you’re embellishing the truth!

by Robert L on Apr 12, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn’t doubt they’d think that!

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I alwasy look at stats such as GAA and Save percentage before wins and losses.

A fantastic goalie can be on a poor team and lose games 2-0, 2-1, 3-2 on a regular basis.

That is some devoted work though, I’ll tip the cap.

Though, Thomas playing that many less games is fine with me, more rest. Price is of course younger, but we’ll see if he gives up the ghost to exhaustion before all is said and done.

Looking forward to tomorrow night.

by 13_Legion on Apr 13, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m looking forward to it as well, it’s going to be a great series! Thanks for the kudos.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heading to any games?

I’m part of a season ticket package with some friends and I picked Saturday night’s game with one of my selections.

by 13_Legion on Apr 13, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless I luck into something, I don’t think I’ll be getting any tickets. Maybe if the Habs move onto the second round I’ll have some money to throw in. But I"m getting married this summer so all my spare cash goes to that.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot depends on whether you want to look at the vezina as most outstanding performance or most value to team. For preformance, Thomas’ .947 even strength save percentage is so otherworldly I question the honesty of the Boston scorekeeper (the last three years Thomas and Rask have both had astonishingly high save percentages). But if your talking about value for the team Price putting up the 4th highest EV and 5th highest total save percentage among starters (40+ games) with the heaviest workload should get him consideration.

by Stephan Cooper on Apr 12, 2011 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Indeed Thomas’s numbers are unreal. I thought about the Boston scorekeeper being a wacko, but his road SVP is .937, so I guess not.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Before they choose the Vezina winner(I say they cuz i unfortunately don’t know how this works ;P) this is a must-read for them. Price has my vote all the way

by Stavraitos on Apr 12, 2011 7:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I believe the general managers vote for it, I could be wrong though.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was essentially my Price/Halak argument last season. Halak was babied for 3/4 of the season in 2010. He redeemed himself in the playoffs, but my main argument was always that the divide between the two was much closer than one may think.

Personally I believe that SV% is one of the biggest flawed statistics in sports. Unlike ERA, there is no defensive adjustment so using it as a determining factor to award a trophy is silly to me. I judge my goaltenders based on their ability and there is no doubt in my mind if Price played on the Bruins that he would be in the high .930s as well.

Tim Thomas isn’t even a top 5 goaltender IMO. I would take Ward, Miller, Price, Hiller, Lundqvist and Luongo over him. Rask will be on this list in a year or two. I

Seeing as nobody assesses play anymore and generally rely on stats, Thomas will win the award easily, but he isn’t the best goaltender in the NHL and he wasn’t the best this season.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 12, 2011 7:30 PM EDT reply actions  

I would say Thomas outperformed Miller this year, but essentially I agree.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that even if save percentage is flawed, any other goaltending stat is way more flawed. It isn’t practical to watch every single goalie in the league so its probably best if voters voted for the starters with the top three save percentage (or better yet EV save percentage) than get drawn into wishy washy qualtitative arguments or look at things that are pure team stats like wins and GAA.

by Stephan Cooper on Apr 12, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just because it isn’t practical to watch every goaltender, it doesn’t make it the correct way to assess the best goaltender. Nobody has figured out a way to measure shot quality and until they do we will get goaltenders being rewarded for the best SV%, not the best goaltender.

The NHL moved away from GAA as the indication of best goaltender and changed it to a vote, but post lockout it has become essentially a reward for the goaltender with the best SV% over the season.

2010 – Ryan Miller – .929 (1st over 50 games played)
2009 – Time Thomas – .933 (1st over 50 games played)
2008 – Martin Brodeur – .920 (3rd over 50 game played, 1st was .922)
2007 – Martin Brodeur – .922 (1st over 50 games played)
2006 – Miikka Kiprusoff – .923 (1st over 50 games played)

The only season in which the best SV% didn’t win over 50 games played was in 2008 when Brodeur won it. He trailed Giguere by .02. With his reputation it was an easy call.

Anybody who watches hockey understands there is a difference between a shot from 10 feet of the net and 70 feet. We also understand that defensive committed forwards and elite defenseman also limit second chance opportunities. As long as those are not measured, SV% will be a flawed indicator. As it is, it is the best one we have so far, but anybody who believes that Anti Niemmi (.920) is a better goaltender than Ryan Miller (.916) is out of their mind. He didn’t just magically have a better season than Miller, he didn’t just get better than Miller, he plays on a better team who limits opportunities.

The problem is that nobody has taken the time to actually understand what makes Carey Price great. His lateral transitions are the best in the league, he rarely leaves any openings and covers huge quantities of net on the move. They don’t understand his footwork, positioning and technical brilliance. They don’t understand how he makes the save, only that he makes it. That is why the fanbase was so willing to jettison him last summer.

Thomas lovers can shout about his SV% and his “miraculous saves”, but the guy is a technical mess and placed on a poor team would get burnt with his poor recoveries and lateral movement. He plays on the perfect team for his ability. Is Thomas good? Sure he is, you can’t put up a .930+ SV% over 50 games if you are incompetent, but he is not the best goaltender in the league.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

My point is that there are degrees of being wrong and with current knowledge save percentage is probably less wrong than anything else out there. Going by save percentage at least is an objective measurement of something that has to do with being a good goaltender.

The biggest problem I think is that any shots converting to goals based metric is going to be subject to random variation over the course of a single season, much like goal scoring is subject to swings in either direction based on chance (i.e. Corey Perry is not 50 goal scorer every season).

by Stephan Cooper on Apr 13, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Less wrong? It may be less wrong than GAA and Wins, but it leads to wild fluctuations and an inconsistent read.

Are there 40 goaltenders better than Jaroslav Halak today? Using his SV% from last season and the playoffs, can’t we reach the conclusion that he was an elite goaltender? Now in St. Louis he is worse than Theodore, Bobrovsky, Roloson, Lehtonen etc etc etc?

To me that is a pretty extreme jump to make. The truth lies in the middle, but the numbers will not tell you that. Instead fans and media fill in the blanks with guesses.

As a goaltender you don’t lose the ability to move laterally or forget how to cut angles or read the play from season to season. Once you hit your prime you remain virtually the same and your stats fluctuate based on luck and difficulty. No team can replicate a performance from the year before, so no goaltender can replicate their stats year to year. What I do know is that if you are on a strong defensive team every season that your difficult shots will be limited and your SV% will go up. Jacques Lemaire proves this everywhere he goes.

Carey Price will always be a technical beast and the strength of his team will not change that. Put him on the Bruins and he is likely +.930. Put him on the Islanders and he is probably going to put up a .910. Same goaltender, totally different result. How can that be viewed as a legit comparable?

Good teams have good SV% regardless of goaltending talent. The Flyers have shown this for close to 3 decades and turned Michael Leighton from career AHLer to Stanley Cup finalist. That wasn’t luck and a small sample size, it was team defensive skill.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Before we get to the statistics, let’s get the non-measurable arguments out of the way. I think most people will agree that it is much more difficult to be a goaltender in Montreal than anywhere else in the league, certainly much more difficult that in Boston. I think we can also agree that no player in the entire National Hockey League was under more pressure to succeed than Carey Price was this season. This year was the most important of Price’s young career, and failure would have defined his career in Montreal. To succeed under these circumstances, and not just to have a good year but a great one, takes a special kind of mental toughness that is especially rare, even for elite goaltenders in the NHL. I think it is important to keep these factors in mind when looking at the stats.

You can’t possibly be serious. You want to give Price brownie points because he plays in the fish bowl that is Montreal? Maybe the Habs should just be awarded the Stanley Cup each season because Montreal is a high pressure hockey city? This is hockey, a game played by men, Price doesn’t want any special treatment, he wants to earn the Vezina on his own.

I will admit that Timmy isn’t the best goalie in the NHL, not on paper anyway. However, he is the reason the Bruins are where they are and had the season they have. Forget the vezina, Timmy should be getting the Hart.

by MattS on Apr 12, 2011 7:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Chara is the MVP of the Bruins, remove him from the Bruins and Thomas does not put up a .939 SV%. Thomas isn’t even the MVP on his own team, let alone the league.

And I agree, Price’s pressure in Montreal is irrelevant to Vezina votes, but it was damn impressive considering the fans were waiting to throw him under the bus.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 12, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you’re letting your emotions cloud your judgment. At no point did I suggest Price be awarded the Vezina simply because he plays in Montreal. The fact of the matter is that Price also put up spectacular numbers, and it was under harsher circumstances than Thomas, much harsher.

No one is saying Price deserves special treatment, I’m just looking deeper into numbers than just the surface, and saying Price’s numbers are much more impressive than they look, and Thomas’s are less impressive than they look.

If the breakdown doesn’t convince you, that’s fine, I said it wasn’t definitive. However please don’t pretend that all I did was lay out an emotion based argument dripping in bias, because that’s not at all what I did.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 12, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

However please don’t pretend that all I did was lay out an emotion based argument dripping in bias, because that’s not at all what I did.

Did you write this?:

Before we get to the statistics, let’s get the non-measurable arguments out of the way. I think most people will agree that it is much more difficult to be a goaltender in Montreal than anywhere else in the league, certainly much more difficult that in Boston. I think we can also agree that no player in the entire National Hockey League was under more pressure to succeed than Carey Price was this season. This year was the most important of Price’s young career, and failure would have defined his career in Montreal. To succeed under these circumstances, and not just to have a good year but a great one, takes a special kind of mental toughness that is especially rare, even for elite goaltenders in the NHL. I think it is important to keep these factors in mind when looking at the stats.

Don’t lie…do you have a Carey Price poster hanging over your bed?

by MattS on Apr 12, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you capable of intelligent discussion, or just here for a pissing match?

by Robert L on Apr 12, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh, yes. That’s relevant information to factor into statistics. It’s called building a logical argument. I said at the beginning that my argument wasn’t definitive so there’s no reason for you to be so butt hurt about it.

Is there anything in that paragraph you quoted that you disagree with? I’m pretty sure most fans around the NHL would agree it’s all common knowledge. If you believe that it’s bias to say it’s more difficult to goaltend in Montreal than it is elsewhere, then I would counter with your perception of bias is due to your own ignorance.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d also be curious to see Thomas’s numbers brokendown month to month. I’ve seen his numbers decline since the start of the season, how much of this year is the insane hotstreak he went on at the begining where he went something like .960 for a stretch of 10 games or so.

by Stephan Cooper on Apr 12, 2011 11:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Thomas’s numbers month to month are on his splits page. They’re actually pretty consistent. The only month he didn’t play well was February, and during that time the Bruins didn’t play him much (only 8 games) so the effect was minimal. The only other full month he was below his season average was November.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carey Price played without the defence of Andrei Markov and Josh Gorges for most of the season. I wonder how well Thomas would perform without Chara…

by Ashok11 on Apr 13, 2011 12:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Let’s find out :)

by Robert L on Apr 13, 2011 6:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

TT vs CP

I am a litle surprised at this article but whatever. Price has had a great year no questions asked but to say that he has played in a more hostile environment and therefore that somehow plays into Price’s overall play and he should be given a gold star for making it through the season in Montreal is a rediculous notion. These guys are professional athletes and I dont care where it is or who they play against they need to show up for every game. So then should Thomas not get gold star for winning his starting job back that he had lost last season? Dont forget Thomas also won 3 less games in 15 less starts. I mean professional sports its all about winning right so who would you rather have in your net? A goalie with a .938 save % and a .718 % of points earned in games he started. Yes Thomas earned 79 points out of a possible 110 in games that he started. Thats pretty frickin unreal especially when you consider the Bruins give up more shots than any other team that made the playoffs. Now lets look at Prices #’s….a great save % .923 but a middle of the pack number of .585 % of points earned in starts. If I was building a team I would want the goalie who stops more shots and earns more points in less starts. But that is just my opinion.

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 9:21 AM EDT reply actions  

If you placed Carey Price on the Bruins and do you really believe the Bruins get worse?

I think Price is a year or two away from being the undisputed best goaltender in the league, but I am the first one to tell you if you replaced him with Miller or Lundqvist that the Habs would still be in the 90-95 point range.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am not saying that at all. I am actually a big Price fan (yes I can feely admit that) way back from his JR days and that glorious shootout with him and Toews in the WJHC. You think the Habs are worse with Thomas in the net? Being a Bruins fan in Canada I see every Bruin game and pretty much every leaf and habs game too because I just love the game. What everyone forgets is that Thomas single handedly kept the Bruins above water in the first month of the season. The Bruins were only scoring 2 and 3 goals a game with an EN in there as well. TT simply stole game after game and now that its April everyone seems to forget what happened at the start of the season. Not only did he start like that but he kept his numbers in that range all season. That is dominance in its purest form regardless of who is on your team, who you play for, or what city you play in.

Just dont misread my Thomas support for being blinded by it because hes a Bruin because your above comment about Price’s movement and abilities is spot on but dont forget there was a guy named Hasek who played a lot like Thomas and when it comes down to it; it does not matter how you stop the puck….just that you do. That being said you guys have a stud tender that I dont look forward to seeing 6 games a year for however long he plays for. Unfortunately for me I only get to see the first 3 games of this series and then its off to the DR for a good friends wedding that gets me back in town the day after game 7 (if there is one). Good luck in the series guys and lets hope that the side circus is over with and these teams get to play some hockey.

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with Hasek/Thomas comparable. Hasek was never initially out of position, his recoveries were awkward, but the position was played in a totally different manner in 1999 then it is today. Roy is one of the fathers of the butterfly but if you watch the 1993 Cup run his technique is raw and resembles nothing what Price can do today. If somebody played like Roy in 1993 today they would get lit up.

Dropping 1999 Hasek in the NHL today would not result in the best goaltender in the world in 2010. So Thomas playing like him is not a compliment in 2010 and is generally used to cement his unorthodox recoveries.

As for Thomas stealing wins, I don’t believe a goaltender wins games on his own for a month. I could make the same argument for Price over the first two months when he went 17-7-2 and he had a .936 SV% with 4 shutouts, but I don’t because it is a team game. Last season Price was outstanding over the first 3 months but got zero goal support and the fanbase wanted to trade him because he only got 13 wins. Same goalie, drastically different results.

Either way I don’t really care. A trophy voted on by individuals who don’t know the position is really unimportant to me. All it does is prop up legacy and push forth a media belief, not necessarily the truth. If everybody chooses to believe that Thomas is better than Price, it doesn’t change anything. Every Hab fan was convinced that Halak was miles ahead of Price less than a year ago, it changed nothing.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t say EVERY Hab fan was convinced, I certainly wasn’t.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if every Hab fan didn’t want Price shipped, every Hab fans confidence was shaken in Price somewhat. There was a minority of fans who wanted to keep Price, funny that most of them were EOTP regulars.

I did cartwheels when they traded Halak. The best part was when Leaf fans tried to use the Halak trade to bother me and get me going. Like that would set me off.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t say I did cartwheels when Halak was traded because quite honestly I was shocked Gauthier had the balls. But that proved to me that I was underestimating him as a GM. I think that was the gutsiest move made by a GM in a long long time, and he should be up for that executive of the year award for it, along with the Wisniewski trade.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was shocked and relieved. The relief that I didn’t have to be right about Price and watch as he dominated for another team. That relief led to cartwheels.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understandable for sure, I was also relieved. That was a day of the most massive freakouts I’ve ever seen, and as usual when people act on emotion, they wee dead wrong. Damn I’m glad we kept Price.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your argument that Thomas held the Bruins in it for October while they weren’t scoring kind of works against you, Price has done that all season.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thomas has a better points % simply because he played against worse teams, and played less often than Price. His time SH is also less than half of what Price played. It’s undisputed who had the more difficult job.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with that statement because Thomas’s numbers remained constant throught the season as someone stated above regardless of who he played against.

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

At the end of the day it is unimportant. As a Hab fan I would rather have Thomas win the Vezina. If Price won the Vezina/Hart combo then his next contract will double in value immediately.

I could care less who wins the Vezina award. Roy is arguably the most influential and greatest goaltender of the previous generation and he won it only three times in 18 seasons.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is funny because we know what TT’s contract status turned into after his first vezina win.

And I would be ok with saying that Roy was the best of that generation. Not sure who would be better from that group.

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be pretty awesome for TT to win 2 Vezinas after only being in the NHL for 6 season and I think that demonstrates that he is an elite level goalie.

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Easier to keep that high SVP though when you’re rarely playing the best and rarely playing overall.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I voted for Price simply because Thomas only played 57 games.

And that his opponents seemed to be hand picked as evidenced by 45.6% of his starts against the bottom third of the NHL.

by Jason Witte on Apr 13, 2011 10:34 AM EDT reply actions  

There were points where Rask couldn’t stop a freight train though. Extra games were put on Thomas’ shoulders, be they bottom feeders or not.

by 13_Legion on Apr 13, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rask this yeah is much like Price last year. He’s still playing well but he’s been extremely unlucky. And of course because the team didn’t win while he was in net, he’s the focus of blame. Much like many Bruins fans blame Rask for the breakdown in the playoffs last season, even if most of Philadelphia’s goals would have gone in on any goalie, and Rask still stopped a disproportionate number of scoring chances.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Rask beat out Thomas for the starting position again next season, in the end he is the superior goaltender to TT.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rask this ye"ah"

You trying to learn our accent so you can come down here and spy?

by 13_Legion on Apr 13, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s just an awesome typo! In reality I couldn’t do a Bahston accent to save my life. I can kind of do Irish and that’s it.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really great piece, Andrew. Thought you didn’t like math.

In the end, and as you note, Tommy’s still a lock for the Vezzy. He deserves it. Hopefully, however, he drops it on his foot at the awards ceremony.

I can wait another season before Price’s staggerin’ string of Vezina wins gets underway, figurin’ it’ll cost the Habs at least $1.5M-$2M per annum in cap space if the wins one before he negotiates a new long-term deal ahead of 2012-13, assumin’, of course, we’re not all watchin’ World of Series Poker reruns by that time.

by JD__ on Apr 13, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

I guess if all math in high school was masked as hockey statistics I would have enjoyed it a lot more!

Thanks for coming in and commenting James, it means a lot. I agree that both Thomas deserves it and that it would be best for the organization for Price to get snubbed this year and next. Although he’ll probably be nominated this year which might be just as bad.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for your intelligent and mature contribution.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

heh, guilty. I just find it laughable to suggest that a goalie who broke season save % record should really be facing any competition for the Vezina. But you note that he’s likely a lock. Good stat research, but there’s not much case to be made given the competition

by TomServo42 on Apr 13, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is all relative. Hasek’s .937% was accomplished in an era when the average SV% in the league was .907 as opposed to the .913% average in 2011.

Six goaltenders broke .920 when Hasek did it (started 10+ games).
In 2011 19 goalies accomplished that number (10+ games).

Apples and oranges when you further factor in equipment, goalie coaches etc.

It was an impressive season and the way they award the trophy he is a lock.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair argument, but get back to me when another player breaks the record.

by TomServo42 on Apr 13, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

It wouldn’t surprise me if it was next season. Goalies are going to get better, not worse. My seven year old is already learning the skating, edge techniques that Carey Price is using, something that wasn’t available to a guy like Price in 1994.

The evolution of goaltenders will lead us to a league full of Price clones and players like Thomas and Brodeur will be extinct.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s laughable at all to say that best stats =\= best season. I don’t think Thomas can lay claim to the best season of any goaltender in the NHL when he barely played half his games against the top 2/3 of the NHL, compared to say, Cam Ward and Carey Price who played well over 2/3 of their games against top competition.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best stats in two key categories, second in shutouts one ahead of Carey in fewer games and only 3 wins behind Carey in 15 fewer games. The only goalie that puts forth a good challenge in all categories is Luongo.

I also put little stock in the “top teams” argument given teams positions and performance at different points in the year. If a goalie plays a dominating Dallas or St Louis team early in the year and they tank late in the year, why does that win get written off as a freebie?

by TomServo42 on Apr 13, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

not sure what’s up with the strike through. formatting error of some sort.

by TomServo42 on Apr 13, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hilarious formatting error! It’s like EOTP is trying to censor you.

Like I said earlier though, this article is far from definitive, I don’t expect it to change everyone’s mind. If I would have just put up that same poll on this site without writing an article the result probably wouldn’t have been much different. Thomas does deserve recognition and he’ll get it for sure. I’m just saying that in some respects Price deserves it even more.

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah when you use the dashes, it does strikethrough. Best to use brackets next time (one ahead of Carey in fewer games).

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Apr 13, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s best to use year end stats because those were the teams that were consistently good all year. We could go through and see where each team was when every game was played, But I think that’s a weak argument. Just because the Islanders had a winning record and were in a playoff spot when Price beat them in October doesn’t mean they’re good.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with the overall statement but its does have an effect on the teams play and their results over say a smaller sample. They might be a basement team over 82 games but if they are in the middle of an 8 game winning streak then I feel the argument is not that weak.

IE if you play the Bruins in the middle of the 6 game (west coast and east coast) road trip they look like an elite team and if you play them in the following 7 game whatever streak that was (I think 1-3-3) they look like a basement dweller so the time you play a team does have a bearing on how they are playing at that time. Another good example would have been the Islanders tear they went on in Feb or March I am not too sure which makes them a tougher team for a short period which would have an effect on which goalie you might put in.

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

It definitely has an effect, although I think when you look at things like that you kind of get into an infinite regress, because you have to see what teams the opposing team has played to get on that hot streak. We could definitely go that in depth, but I think it would take forever and probably wouldn’t yield too different of a result.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed that it does open up for a very in depth look at things and it could go on and on forever but I do think it might be something to see. Granted the quality shot chart would be an ideal way to do it. They are able to do it for basketball so why not hockey??

PS saw you mention above on wedding plans so congrats!!

by beachguy113 on Apr 13, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, a shot quality chart would be excellent. I’m hoping that’s what Chris Boyle is currently working on.

And thanks!!

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

One has to be a little bit concerned when he sees the analysis puts two teams in different tiers for different players.

NYR and Carolina aren’t treated the same way for weach player. if they were, either Thomas would have 20 games against bottom third (20/27 = 35% = approx 26/72) or Carey would have played 32 games against bottom tier (32/72 = 44% = approx 26/57). A correction for this (as you can see) essentially negates any argument to be had here.

The argument at the bottom is actually far more interesting and I wish you would have explored this in more detail. The quality of shots is what we lack from comparison of goalies on different teams, but PK time does give some notion of a higher quality of shot, this is a great start to getting to the bottom of that.

Finally, I’d say that adding Price to the Vezina mix is right, but it means we need to consider others as well like Lundquvist, Rinne, Luongo and Ward, maybe more. Even if price is better than Thomas, it does not necessarily mean that someone else didn’t do something more incredible than Price.

by Topham on Apr 13, 2011 2:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Luongo is similar to Thomas in that most of his wins come against the bottom half of the NHL, and he also played far fewer games than usual.

But like I said, it’s not a definitive analysis, just interesting to look at.

As for the shot quality data, I’d also be interested to see a more in depth analysis of it, but I’m not sure I’m the one to do it. I did what I could with the data I had.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

But what of the two teams in different places?

And what of the fact that Thomas is 11-2-2 with crazy numbers against the top tier as well as playing well against the bottom?

by Topham on Apr 13, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

The two teams in different places is an obvious flaw, but it’s a flaw created by Thomas not playing enough.

As for Thomas’s numbers against the top teams, I think I pointed out that they were better across the board, but it’s a lot easier to keep those high numbers when you’re barely playing. Remember that part way through the season this year Alex Auld of all people had a .93+ SVP.

Price also played against teams like St. Louis and Columbus that Thomas didn’t play against, and many would argue both those teams are better than the Hurricanes and maybe even better than the Rangers, but victims of a tougher conference, and in possibly the toughest division.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Apr 13, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I made this argument with Halak last season.

Facing a Capitals team that blitzed the league was more impressive than the Panthers or Leafs. The league average SV% against the Caps in 2010 was .884, whereas the league average against the Leafs and Panthers was .921 and .913.

How can this not be a factor when you see that Price played the Capitals 4 times and Halak faced the Leafs/Panthers 8 times? It was a factor and it is why you have seen a large drop off in Halak’s production in 2011. If you add in SV% on PP versus EV then it becomes even more shocking.

Say the best team in the league was the Devils and they had a low shooting percentage but they were the best defensive team in the league. The league average SV% against them is .912 and Price faces them 6 times. Thomas faces the Oilers 6 times, but they play run and gun and although their defense is horrid, they score 3-4 goals a game, their average SV% against is .895. Now you have a scenario where you can face the higher seeded team and be expected to perform statistically worse.

It is an inexact science in which numbers can be made to dance if certain statistics are left out of the analysis.

by Chris Boyle on Apr 13, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

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