Martin Sacked
In a surprising move, Jacques Martin was fired this morning by Montreal Canadiens GM Pierre Gauthier. While there has been a consistent call for his termination from fans almost since the day he was hired, the Canadiens seemed to be happy with what Martin brought to the table until now.
The team was clearly under-performing lately, however a large portion of blame for that could easily be put on a multitude of injuries. The Habs have been the most injured team in the NHL this season in both man-games lost and CHIP, which calculates how much salary is on the shelf each game.
In many ways this looks like a panic move by the organization after the Canadiens have failed to make a significant push since winning 4 straight games in October.
There were hints that this might happen however. Early in the season Martin had been benching Gauthier's two prize signings in Alexei Emelin and Erik Cole. While that has changed recently, there was a bit of a feeling of differing philosophy between coach and GM.
Regardless of the reasoning, the Canadiens have decided to hand the reins to Randy Cunnyworth on an interim basis. This may be surprising to many as Cunnyworth does not speak French. This decision may be a precursor to the Canadiens moving away from the self-restraint of hiring bilingual coaches, or it could be a stop-gap measure which gives them until the summer to find a suitable candidate.
Canadiens official press release:
MONTREAL – The Canadiens have announced that Jacques Martin has been relieved of this duties.
Randy Cunneyworth is named interim head coach of the Montreal Canadiens until the end of the season.
Larry Carrière becomes assistant coach.
Canadiens GM Pierre Gauthier will meet the media after the team morning skate today.
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I’m honestly not surprised. I had guessed it would come before January 1.
Regardless of how many injuries there have been, he has made some very questionable ongoing decisions (not playing young players much, Darche on the PP, 4th liners in key situations) that have resulted in some serious mishaps. I have a feeling Louis Leblanc playing :49 in the third on Thursday didn’t exactly bode well for poor Martin.
I doubt a single ice time decision really factored in.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe Geoff is watching too much AC each night.
by fsaintjacques on Dec 17, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
I think it’s a build up of a bunch of problems, combined with results that weren’t up to par.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
In fairness to Martin, I think we also have to factor in the point that he never really had Markov on his team for the entire time he was behind the bench. That’s two and half years without your best player.
Andrew, I also think that Mr. Gauthier is hoping the addition of Carriere behind the bench will balance out Cunneyworth’s inability to speak French. It should at least get him to the end of the year.
True about Markov, and that really hurt Martin overall.
As for Carriere, I can see the logic, but so far the French media doesn’t care and is already in an uproar.
https://twitter.com/#!/LucGelinas/status/148077174270853121
Look at that for example. Clear ethnocentrism.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
This might be a bit of a stretch, but maybe the Cunneyworth hiring could be a precursor of things to come. Test the waters, break the tradition and then open up your options for future hires, whether it be coach or GM.
I doubt this will ever happen, especially in light of the comments Geoff Molson made when he took over the team. They can get away with Cunneyworth right now because of the lack of alternatives. Crawford and Hartley are examples of the SOS (Same Old Shit) philosophy while Roy is a nutbar who lacks the stability to handle the job. People mention Savard but it might be another ill-advised move just like the Chelios trade. Been there, done that. Maybe Vigneault returns in the fall if Vancouver fails to win the Cup:-)
I’d hire Vigneault in a split second. I highly doubt he becomes available but if he does the Habs would be hugely mistaken not to snap him up.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if they’re hoping Boucher will get fired in Tampa, given the horrid record there. Mind you, their micros are equally terrible.
I wish, but I doubt Yzerman will panic.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
And George McPhee.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'd agree with that.
For now, it seems that Yzerman wants to see what Boucher can do before making a quick reaction. Now if the rest of the season completely goes off the deep end, that’s a different story, but I think Yzerman would like to see Boucher into next season.
by The Bull Gator on Dec 17, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
You kind of have to give him some leeway after last year.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Wow.
I kind of assumed there was some unhappiness in Montreal with how the season was going but I thought the injuries would buy Martin some more time. What the HEOTP feeling about this move?
They did it for Savy, they did it for Horton, they did it for each other, they did it for us. I give you the 2011 Stanley Cup Champions....The Boston Bruins!!
I wish Matthew Stafford was Drew Brees. (This is what happens when you back your team and they lose),
I’m very cautious about judging it. Martin instituted the best puck possession system the Habs have had in over a decade, but there are always quibbles to be had with coaches when you over-analyze.
People need to remember that Cunnyworth coached the Bulldogs last year with Martin’s system so there may not be many changes.
The most encouraging thing to me is that the Habs are going with an English coach for the remainder of the year. Not because he’s English, but because it means they’re willing to not kowtow to expectation. If that means they’ll grab the best coach available in the summer, I’m happy.
So I guess you could say I’m cautiously optimistic, but still slightly worried.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Just took me by surprise because I thought that Martin was a great fit with the team speed Montreal had. They wanted the puck as much as possible. For example in the first round last year against the Bruins you could see how their posession skills were hard for the Bruins to counter. When you have a team that is as fast as they were and also able to control the puck it makes for a long day for the other team when you are constantly trying to chase them down.
Maybe they should look at their strenght and conditioning guy or their trainers as to why all the guys keep getting hurt! (Sarcasm)
They did it for Savy, they did it for Horton, they did it for each other, they did it for us. I give you the 2011 Stanley Cup Champions....The Boston Bruins!!
I wish Matthew Stafford was Drew Brees. (This is what happens when you back your team and they lose),
by beachguy113 on Dec 17, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah it definitely is a surprise. I’m not sure how to react. I know a lot of people from this site are going to react like Bruce down below, but it all depends on the replacement. I’m not sure there’s much of a difference between Martin and Cunnyworth so I’m not burning a cop car yet!
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Who would you guys like to see as the replacement?
They did it for Savy, they did it for Horton, they did it for each other, they did it for us. I give you the 2011 Stanley Cup Champions....The Boston Bruins!!
I wish Matthew Stafford was Drew Brees. (This is what happens when you back your team and they lose),
by beachguy113 on Dec 17, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I have no idea at this point. Really all I have is a list of people I really don’t want, including:
Crawford – classless tool, horrible coach, not intelligent.
Therrien, Carbo – been there, done that
Hartley – too crazy, although actually a solid coach
Roy – Too inexperienced with vets.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
“Like to see” would be Larry Robinson, but that won’t happen.
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Puck possession team?
Do you really think that we’re a good puck possession team? I never really noticed that watching our team, even though it was said that it was martin’s style.
Do you have anything particular to back up that this team is better at puck possession than any in the past 10 years? I mean your statement might be accurate, seeing that our team in the past 10 years hasn’t been that good..
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
Yes. Fenwick numbers this year and last year were the best the Habs have had since Jacques Demers. In fact they were the only time they’ve been positive since then.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
hah!
Do you really think, qualitatively speaking, that this team was good at puck possession?
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
Uh… yes. Wtf are you on about?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t be mad please, I was asking an honest question…do you have a link describing fenwick number, ive since forgotten the defintion.
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
I’m not mad, I’m just confused as to your “hah!” as if you think it was a gotcha question.
As for Fenwick, it’s the number of shots and missed shots. If you have the puck more you shoot more. Montreal was top 5 in the league for the first 1/4 of the season and now are 15th after several key injuries.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
It was a little chuckle, because it was funny that you would see something that I found was lacking. Not gotcha, just a difference of opinion…
I’d be curious to see something about giveaways in the d and neutral zone or something to that effect. That’s where I think good puck possession/management is important. Canadiens can pepper the opposing goalie with crappy outside shots like they did often early season, with poor results.
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
Giveaways are a useless stat, especially in Montreal where the Bell Centre guys overcount them by nearly double.
Shots being all from the outside is also completely narrative. Looking at Olivier’s site proves that wrong.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
What about time of puck possession? Or time in offensive/defensive zone? Anything like that?
Re. shitty changes – even the first few games of the season to boost fenwick, narrative? If he’s got the shot placement charts, I’ll accept.
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
Time in zone isn’t measured, however a Leafs blogger measured it manually over 10 games recently and found Corsi correlated at 90+% and Fenwick at ~85%.
Shot charts are available on NHL.com and Olivier charts shots himself. And yes, it’s narrative.
Hell, I’ve seen people complain about the opponent getting all the “good” shots when the Habs had 17 shots from the inside to 3 for the other team. People see what they want.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Cool. Back to the subject though, how would you rank montreal in terms of puck possession this season rel. to other teams in league?
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
Middling, unfortunately. Very strong to start the season, then they weakened considerably as they lost more and more people.
The loss of Gomez was especially telling because he is a heavy lifter who didn’t require to be backed by Subban to be effective against second-liners, unlike Eller.
Yea Gomez did help in puck possession, that can be seen clearly. Too bad that he couldn’t generate more points/60 minutes to accompany possession?
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
Gomez’s ES points/60 actually weren’t too shabby this year, he just didn’t get any production on the PP and missed a lot of time.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yea…that’s a bad time to not be productive.
Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens
The whole team has been pretty unproductive though, aside from Cole.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Largely due to an absolutely comical run of bad shooting luck. Montreal’s 5-on-4 shooting percentage wasn’t just the worst in the league, it was also worse than any club’s 5-on-5 shooting percentage.
Undoubtedly.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
They were top 5 for the first 20 or so games, and they’ve sucked since Gomez went down against Carolina, back down to 15th.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Fenwick.
Here’s a list: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2011.php?sort=6§ion=close
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
I’m thinking this is a combination that Martin lost control of the room and as mentioned already there was probably a difference in philosophies between PG and JM.
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
You know how many times Lindy Ruff has “lost the room” over the last 15 years?
Way to many to count.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 12:06 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Well, I’m not being cautious. This is a terrible decision. The only way do I see it as justified is if Goats thinks the leadership core were struggling because of Martin, namely Plekanec, Cammalleri, Gionta, etc.
Fact is, this is a team with too many injuries to expect much more out of than what they got.
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How bad the decision is all depends on who’s the long term replacement imo. If it’s someone like Carbo, we’re screwed. If the org is patient and finds someone worthwhile, it could be alright.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
I am not big on moves to appease fans or relieve pressure from the GM in survival mode.
I was listening to Mark Cuban explain how he found out early on that him and his GM were not on the same page because his priority was titles and the GMs was job security.
I am not sure how to absorb this because if it was a PR move then somebody like Crawford would be coaching today. I still can’t shake the feeling that this is a sacrifice though.
I am tired of all the cliches about “losing the room” and “team needs a change” because I have seen guys like Ruff and Trotz move up and down with poor seasons and successful ones and remain at the helm.
The only thing that would appease me with this move is philosophical differences between coach and GM.
I am not a Gauthier bashed by any means, but I have to be critical of a guy who supported his coach allowing Boucher and Muller to leave the organization and then fires him now. That contradicts the support and looks like short term thinking.
If you ask for my reaction, it will depend on who he is replaced with. If you want my visceral reaction, it screams panic and sacrifice.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 11:16 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
The only thing that would appease me with this move is philosophical differences between coach and GM.
This x1000.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Okay guys
Let’s try to come up with a list of coaches that are available that would even be acceptable. Can anyone think of someone?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:25 AM EST reply actions
If we include English language ones as well, I think Jacques Lemaire is the only one I’d fire Martin for.
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by Bruce Peter on Dec 17, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
I can’t see Lemaire coming over. If there was any chance of it, he’d be hired right now like he was in Jersey last year.
For sake of argument we should include English ones.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
That’s literally the only guy out there right now I’d want unless we sign a head coach away from another team.
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by Bruce Peter on Dec 17, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
I think Carlyle is worth exploring. I know his possession numbers were terrible in Anaheim but that team is a joke as far as depth goes.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Davis Payne way before Carlyle, IMO.
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by Bruce Peter on Dec 17, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Payne looked good but he coached a very short time.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Thinking of coaches who may be fired by season-end..
Tampa Bay is having a rough year. What would your opinion be of PG signing Guy Boucher to rejoin the Habs if he were to become available.
I highly doubt Yzerman is going to panic with Boucher. if he does though we should hire him immediately.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
the question that I think is important is this
If Markov had not had a setback and the majority of this team was healthy, do you fire Martin?
If the answer is no, then this is a result based reactionary move and those are rarely good.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 11:45 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
I can’t imagine him getting fired if that’s the situation, which means it’s not good.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Chris suggests above philosophical differences between JM and PG. It will likely takes months to get the real story but that may well be the basis.
I think that’s a big part of why, but lack of success on the surface clearly had something to do with it.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that one regulation loss in December was terrible.
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by Bruce Peter on Dec 17, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
So terrible. But let’s be honest, in spite of points accumulated, the team HAD to start winning and wasn’t.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I think we all agree that despite going 3-1-3 they were playing like dog shit.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly though. Is missing the playoffs the end of the world?
My goal as a fan is the Stanley Cup. I have watched for the better part of 10 years and the end game seems to be playoffs. The longer it becomes that the more chance they will lose my passion.
If we truly believe in process over results than a year in which you suffer crippling injuries is not the end game, you adjust and move forward to the real end game which is a Stanley Cup.
True leadership is what Gauthier did when he gave the fans the double middle finger and traded Halak. He analyzed the process, not the short term result. I can live without the playoffs in the short term if the long term goal moves forward.
I will wait for clarification before I figure out where I am on this.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 12:22 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think with the way this team is put together, they felt they were a cup contender, which was corroborated when they were mostly healthy this year by their possession numbers.
With the ages of the players we have and the contract situations, there’s a limited amount of time to push for the cup, so a lost year can be disastrous imo.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if I agree with the window. The goal is the Wings.
It is a lofty goal, but the Cup is a lofty goal. Sometimes you get bad luck in your extended window (Sens, Caps), sometimes you get extremely lucky in a small one (Canes, Ducks).
The young core should assure a nice run for the next 7-8 years. So I am not going to freak out over missing the playoffs one year.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 12:45 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I see it slightly differently. I see a strong team for the next two seasons, then probably a big step back with guys like Markov, Gionta starting to decline, then a bigger surge upwards with young players hitting their strides.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think you can project forward 2-3 seasons.
Go look at the 1989 Habs and then the 1993 edition. Then look at the 1996 Habs in relation to 1993.
2003 and 2006 or 2008 and 2010.
The Habs could deal Gomez, Cammalleri, Gorges this summer and all your expectations are rendered moot.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 12:57 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
True enough. I just don’t see a lot of flexibility currently. Creative GMing could change that.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Listen to what Gorges says, when roughly half or three quarters of the guys aren’t doing what’s asked of them (referencing playing the system)…makes me wonder who was and who wasn’t on board,
I haven’t listened to any of the player interviews, still not checking HIO.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
I expected it might happen, but after Martin survived a couple rough stretches, I thought he would survive.
The next few days will help paint a better picture, but it doesn’t look good. A saturday morning and no replacement ready aren’t good signs.
At least they didn’t just rush to sign some fool like Crawford to a multi-year contract.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Please! Not Crawford!
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I guess that’s the good news, I simply assumed that if Martin were to go it would be because the Habs had their man already. Promoting and assistant hardly looks like a plan.
When the good news is that your team didn’t hire Marc Crawford, it’s a bad news day.
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by Bruce Peter on Dec 17, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Too true.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Another head coach who didn’t survive his third season with the Habs. Come on, Molson/Gauthier find yourself a Ruff and stick to him.
by Hypnotoad on Dec 17, 2011 12:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I thought they’d found that with Guy Boucher, guess not.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair
We didn’t burn any bridges with Boucher. He came up through our system faster than anyone could have expected, with the awesome record and GF/GA ratios in Hamilton. At the time, he was behind Martin and Muller on the depth chart and when other teams came calling, management told him, “We’re not going to hold you back, go for it.” But they may well have added, “Get your teeth wet elsewhere and we’ll be happy to have you back when the time is right for you and for the Canadiens”
No doubt he could eventually come back, but he’s under contract for this season and 2 more I believe and I highly doubt Yzerman won’t retain him.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well Gauthier noted that the team blowing leads was a big factor.
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 12:33 PM EST reply actions
I don't beleive this
Luc Gelinas on Twitter: ’Très déçu de Geoff Molson qui laisse Pierre Gauthier nommer un premier entraîneur-chef unilingue anglophone depuis Bob Berry en 1984."
otherwise translated
“Very disappointed in Geoff Molson for allowing Pierre Gauthier to hire to appoint the first uni-lingual anglophone coach since Bob Berry in 1984.”
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 12:42 PM EST reply actions
Pretty embarrassing.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly don’t see anything wrong with it. The guy says he’s disappointed, that’s not particularly strong or stupid. Especially for a RDS guy.
He later tweets that Cunneyworth was his man and that Gauthier clearly had no others in mind.
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Very disappointed for ALLOWING the hiring of an English coach? That’s incredibly offensive, imo.
If an English media type said that in Toronto if they hire say, Clement Jodoin, they would get crucified.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
You’re focusing on the phrasing rather than the idea. A lot of people think the Hab’s head coach should speak french and can rightly be disappointed if it looks like the team is moving away from it.
The idea is foolishly naive and 1980’s thinking as well. If you want to win you hire the best available regardless of language.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
For some reason, “The best regardless of language” is almost always an anglophone, funny how that happens.
Honnestly, the language of the head coach is not something I’m that invested in, although I would prefer a french speaking candidate because it’s almost impossible to find a francophone coach in the NHL who didn’t get a shot in the Canadiens organization. There’s a talent pool to which the Habs have almost exclusive rights and they should use it. That it also gives opportunities to guys who otherwise wouldn’t get a shot is not negligible either.
One thing I do care about however is the annoying double standard of the english media and a significant portion of the fanbase where linguistic bias is held to be the exclusive province of the french fans. That’s absolutely not the case, but some nonsense from RDS is despicably biased while loaded crap like “the best regardless of language” (i.e. certainly not french) is supposed to be neutral?
I think that’s total BS. The best coach available isn’t always an anglophone, but sometimes it is. As mentioned above, if someone like VIgneault became available he’s instantly the best coach available by leaps and bounds. The trouble is limiting the number of candidates available to ONLY Francophones. If they go through all available candidates and hire a bilingual coach, I could not care less. But I want them to consider all avenues.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think we are in agreement about the coach, I would be on board if the habs hired someone like Carlyle.
The second part of my comment about bias wasn’t directed at anyone here, but at other people out there who use “the best regardless of language” as a loaded expression. It’s an unfortunate situation, but there are fans who don’t see francophones in the habs organization as legitimate. Some of the stuff I read about Martin really pissed me off. As if the guy with 1000+ games in the NHL and a solid system was a clueless positive discrimination hire…
I think 99.9% of the time the Francophones hired or employed by the Habs are legitimately there for skills or experience or whatever, I just object to the fact that someone needs to be French as a prerequisite to be hired at all. There aren’t very many French players or personnel over the last few years that I can remember thinking they wouldn’t have a job elsewhere. I just want the best.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
If the org is willing to go with a rookie coach, I think there is always a competent french-speaking alternative somewhere, either standing as an assistant-coach or coaching in the AHL.
What we must be afraid of is cronyism. Peanuts hiring Tremblay, Gainey hiring Carbo. If they stand clear of that path, we’ll be fine (being a rich-ass market club with an excellent scouting department has it perks).
I think Gauthier is scrambling for his job right now and I simply hope that, if they can him, they won’t screw up the scouts.
I sincerely hope that Gauthier is scrambling to save the season rather than his job. However if his job is in jeopardy and the ownership group believed in Martin I don’t think this move gets made.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
PG did say that it was entirely his decision, though Molson supported him. How true that is, I don’t know.
I believe that, but still that means he talked to Molson, so if Molson didn’t support him the move likely would not have been made.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think that’s the case. More likely Gauthier panicked about not making the playoffs this year, bowed to media/fan pressure. Wait that’s just as scary…
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll work on it but I’m not a magician.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
It depends how you look at it. There’s been a lot of discontentment in the fanbase and Molson risks not only missing the playoffs, but a decline in his revenue’s growth (the most important thing to sport teams owners) because people give up on the team.
If he trusts Gauthier and is confident they can find a competent coach in the offseason, it’s a reasonable business decision.
Yeah, I’m really trying hard and failing to find a positive spin on that.
That’s what I want to see too, but my cynical mind can’t help but think that if it’s between winning and turning a big profit, not many owners (if any) will choose winning.
Of course those two aren’t mutually exclusive, they even correlate to a certain point, but there is no way to know which one motivated what happened today.
I guess a more accurate dichotomy would be long term planning — and potential big money — vs good amount of money in the short term.
I think long term lost today.
I really don’t think blindly making money without a care for winning is Molson’s MO. If it was, I just don’t see any reason why he shuffled out Pierre Boivin and Ray Lalonde, who were kicking the tar out of every other team in the league as far as marketing goes.
Chicago credited Montreal’s business and marketing strategy in reviving the popularity of their franchise as they copied it.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I agree Molson hasn’t shown any indication of being a profit first owner, but he probably didn’t think his team risked missing the playoffs at the start of the season.
And even if he thought that was a risk, he probably didn’t expect the fans to be so angry so quick. It’s been a frustrating year but the level of vitriol is out of control.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
You think he is that oblivious? Habs fans get vitriolic get things go well. They like nothing more than the Habs to fail so they have something to complain about. And I mean, you don’t have to read too many newspaper articles to know which way the wind blows in the media, either.
If Molson was expecting Habs fans to show the slightest shred of rational behavior, he’s hopelessly naive.
I think last year is what made the most damage. The team made the conference final in 2009-10, improved greatly in 2010, but the results didn’t follow, then the disastrously unlucky start to the 2011 season was the last blow. After that, all the stories and complaints about the Habs being stuck in a holding pattern of mediocrity surfaced.
The rebuilding and the great housecleaning of july 2009 produced a genuine contender, but injuries and rotten luck have prevented most people from seeing it. I’m sure you’re well aware of how futile it’s been over the past year to point out to fans that the Habs are good.
Then he should be in a different business. It’s sports. There are no sure things. Especially in as luck-driven a sport as hockey.
It wasn’t unreasonable to expect the 2011-12 Canadiens to be in the playoffs.
If money was a factor in the decision, and I’m not sure at all that’s the case, fan dissatisfaction was more important than missing the playoffs.
It was far from unreasonable to expect them to make the playoffs. It was, if anything, unreasonable to expect they wouldn’t.
It is, however, unreasonable to believe it couldn’t happen.
Call it a 90% chance — you expect to make that, but you’d be silly not to realize it might fail.
What I meant is that it’s more angry right now due to the situation Hypnotoad described where people actually expected a contender, than it was before.
People were angry in 2009, but almost all of the anger was directed at Carey Price. Right now you see people openly saying they hate the whole organization. It’s craziness.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Apparentyl Pefenault is upset too, but not as direct.
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
The Habs started the season 1-5-2.
They have had the equivalent of a 99-point record since.
I don’t have the foggiest idea whether Gauthier genuinely expects the team, missing its entire second line and best D-man, to be much better than a 100-point club, but I hope not.
I hope that it’s Montreal’s sagging micros that precipitated this, but even then, with the injury situation, I think it’s a gross mistake.
Well Gauthier stated that even after the recent wins they were looking at the games and concluded that they had played poorly, so I’d say the micros had a lot to do with it. He also mentioned blowing leads as a big factor which it should be imo. We’ve been blowing leads more than I can remember since Carbo’s first year.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
None in regulation I don’t think, but all of the OT/SO losses included blown leads aside from Columbus I think. Don’t quote me though.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Possibly. They still weren’t playing well for the last month.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t help but feel that “lack of a second line and a second D pairing” was more of a factor in that than “inadequate coaching strategy”.
Plus they were doing horrible on Fenwick, but not so much on scoring chances.
Lack of a full second line was really only recently though.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but lack of second D pairing was forever, and the problem is that Gomez was masking it. When he went down, that hole in the lineup was exposed.
It’s definitely been a problem, but considering our number 5-on-5 and that we’re still ~top 10 in goals against, I don’t think we can blame the D too much.
That said, I don’t know how it’s possible to expect much of a turnaround with Gomez, Gionta and Moen all out right now. Compounding this is that Plekanec has been struggling mightily.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
The team fared better down 4 D than it has down 4 forwards. And only two of those forwards were projected as top 9 guys to start the year (G&G, Moen was on the 4th in many scenarios).
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That’s because Gomez was basically insulating a third pairing being used in a second-pairing role. Replacing a third pairing with another third pairing really didn’t have a big impact. Removing the insulation (namely, Gomez) exposed that the Habs don’t have a second pairing.
Well, they could’ve afforded one if Gomez wasn’t making $7.3m, of course. :)
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A combination of losing those guys while Plekanec and Cammalleri struggle is what hurts I’d say.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t necessarily mean he was playing poorly (he’s actually been one of our most dangerous forwards), just that he’s not getting the puck in the net lately despite all the chances. The goals will come, most likely.
Maybe Goats saw this as the perfect time to put in an Anglophone and change organizational philosophy forever as a result.
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How Machiavellian of him.
I would’ve done it back when he fired Pearn though. At that point the team had a dominant possession game and brilliant-looking special teams.
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m already done discussing this seriously. I’m on to the ludicrous. It doesn’t take long, for better or worse.
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If you really thought that you would LOVE HIO!
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Aah but you have to know it is ludicrous for it to be funny. If you don’t realize it it’s just sad. ;)
I forgot about that key component.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Go back and look at December 2005. Julien’s last days were full of blown leads and collapses.
I don’t think it was his fault. Coaching is important, especially when you have a bad coach, but the players are the guys who make the biggest difference.
They are not blowing leads because of Martin, they are blowing them because their D has 3 rookies and 2 sophomores. That is a GM issue, not a coaching one.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 1:11 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
There you go.
Coaching is important, especially when you have a bad coach,
This, this is key. That moves really makes me question Gauthier’s vision. What he needed to do was go and get a freaking defenseman who can play on the right of a second pairing. That or a lefty who can play with Subban.
Canning Martin is useless. They have to retool the defense.
By that same logic though, shouldn’t the players also get most of the credit for playing well?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
I think people are overreacting on both sides. People who think Martin was the problem are nuts, but he also probably wasn’t the big difference that the possession numbers indicate. Could be more the team than the coach there.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Gomez is more important than people believe.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 1:34 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
That goes without saying. Well, not really overall, but here it does.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Yes in the greater scheme of things, Martin doesn’t matter that much. Health and some luck would go a long way toward making the team reach it’s potential.
Of course the firing makes even less sense if we see it that way, but we’ll see. I’m not a fan of intangible explanations, but the game is played by humans who have their own views and opinions maybe the players want a new coach and will perform better.
Or it’s simply regression. Either way the narrative will be about the coach.
Either way the narrative will be about the coach
No doubt.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
yep
Players win championships, not coaches.
Why didn’t Scotty Bowman win multiple Cups in Buffalo?
They provide structure, but if you don’t have the horses you won’t win.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 1:29 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
So if we still have a solid team, as long as the org doesn’t completely eff up we should be fine.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
As long as they don’t rip this apart, they will recover.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 1:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I’m not going to worry yet.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is, the type of roster the Habs have built requires a certain sort of handling. It’s not going to be successful if you just roll lines and not care if DD ends up playing the opposition’s top guns (or worse, decide DD is your #1 power-on-power option).
Martin was capable of this handling. Carbonneau was not. Is Cunneyworth? I hope so, else we’ve just sacked the season.
While a coach may not be able to lift a roster much above its limitation, it’s perfectly possible for him to fuck things up.
I don’t think Cunneyworth is an idiot though. The only people who think DD is a #1 C work for RDS.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Like I said above, a poor coach can destroy things. I am not suggesting they aren’t important, but an average coach with plenty of talent can outperform a great coach with average talent.
I don’t like the way the Habs have plowed through coaches since the lockout. Not one has surpassed three seasons since Burns I believe.
(possibly Vigneault did, but barely)
by Chris Boyle on Dec 17, 2011 1:54 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Seriouly, 4 seasons isn’t that long. Just commit to a plan and build your team for it.
It seems the Habs have suffered from disconnect between coach and GM the last few years. There was the Laraque fiasco under Gainey and Martin didn’t seem to be so hot on Cole and Emelin early this season.
Well, he wisened up on both since then.
He does seem like the type who wants players to earn his trust. I don’t think Cole can complain about his icetime now — 8 minutes of PP?
He quickly appointed him as DD’s sherpa, but the reluctance to use him on the PP was a bit weird. Given how many close games the Habs should have won early in the season when the PP was doing nothing, not playing Cole earlier may be a factor in Martin’s firing. Kind of a butterfly effect.
The problem is the early PP was generating chances, just not goal. There was no real sign that a radical change was required to eventually get result. And Cole would likely not have helped with the rash of shorties.
Sure, there was nothing inherently “wrong” with the PP early on, but Martin isn’t one to shy away from line juggling and there was no reason to expect the PP’s quality to decline with the introduction of one of the team’s best ES chances producer. Darche can be useful in front of the net, but there were better options in term of talent to convert those chances.
Cole had never big a big PP producer before though. Martin’s reluctance to use him was echoed somewhat over here.
It wasn’t entirely baseless, but given that Martin lost his job over 2 points, more or less, a couple goals on the PP would have been great for him.
On a related note: Holy crap my team just fired its coach over a few points in the standings!
I’m not arguing that Cole would have saved Martin’s job or that Martin had much to do with it. It’s just a funny coincidence.
As for the reasons behind the firing, I hope it’s because of some deep disagreement or behind the scenes issues we can’t know of rather than two measly games that would have the Habs in 6th place.
As long as Gauthier is GM I’ll only be mildly worried, wholesale changes would make me really nervous.
He did always manage some crazy personnel decisions though. Darche getting more ice than Pacioretty last game for example.
I think one reason many people don’t like Martin is that he’s so risk averse that sometimes he makes poor decisions. It’s clear that he wants players to earn his trust, but at times he doesn’t give them a chance. Leblanc for example, has proved already to be a very heady player who’s been good on possession, so why play him only 49 seconds in the 3rd last game and rely on Nokelainen and Darche? Doesn’t make much sense.
There’s also the issue of playing favourites, which he undoubtedly does. For example if Weber makes a mistake he’s instantly benched, but Diaz can make the same mistake and get 24 minutes.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Probably, but usually it’s with vets who are good players, no? Not a career journeyman like Darche or a rookie like Diaz.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Not necessarily, but Weber has more experience than Diaz does so logically he would get more leeway. As for Leblanc I haven’t seen many mistakes other than that holding the stick penalty, and when you weigh that against a goal….
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I would say NA experience matters most, and Weber has 228 games to Diaz’s 31.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I am wondering if this has anything to do with the re-alignment.Let’s face it, we will face the Bruins and toronto 12 games starting next year. And then we have to face them in the playoff.
Martin style hasn’t work all that well when facing the Bruins or Flyers in the playoff. We had a chance facing the penguins or washington.
Not appearing playoff-bound...
…about a third of the way through the season, for a coach with only a year and change left on his contract, is usually enough to tip the scales, regardless of any specific underlying rationale.
The only thing that has been sustained since Pearn’s departure has been an almost step-function decline in Too Many Men infractions. Other than that, some of the bad habits we saw early on have returned to some degree or other. The team rarely dominates over a sustained period and is more eking out victories than convincingly winning them; I’m typically not comfortable unless the Habs are up 37-0, with two minutes to go, on a 5-on-3, as the other team is succumbing to a flash ebola virus, and they’ve pulled their goalie.
As such, it doesn’t have to be anything specific nor a philosophical difference, it’s just a reflection of the limited shelf life for NHL coaches, in particular in Montreal.
The interesting thing to see will be what the team does if RC – can we use RC, you know, just cause it’ll be easier to write “Fire RC!” in a few weeks? – enjoys a measurable degree of success. If he brings the team somewhere, will the media and masses blindly call for a bilingual replacement or will the org have found a way to escape this notional linguistic stranglehold?
At the risk of reading too much into RC’s interim status, there is a potential machiavellian angle to all of this on Molson’s behalf.
by JD__ on Dec 17, 2011 1:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Martin’s club was a 99-point club over the last 24 games and was riding up the standings, headed for a playoff spot.
What’s RC’s “mesurable degree of success” threshold, given this precedent? A playoff spot? A 100 point record over the next 50 games (61 points – 28-17-5)?
I’m not in the room but suspect absolute standings probably dominate personnel decisions at this point of the season
Compounding the issue is the manner in which the team is competing; i.e., how many victories have been “in the bag” and, worse, how many have been frittered away. This is hardly an indicment of the team, in particular in a league rife with parity, but when this is measured against the reality JM has been around for some time, his departure seems to be the natural course of things.
I don’t really have a definition for what constitutes a measurable degree of success for RC, but there is a question to be asked. Let’s say he wins the Stanley Cup.
Would the org replace him as head coach next season?
They probably couldn’t replace him then, politically. But I’m hoping the real answer would be “depends on how the Cup was one and whether the process was good”.
But then again: we’d have a Cup. I wouldn’t give a hoot. :P
While we’re on the subject and regarding those bad habits maybe the ones that burn my butt the most was the incredibly sloppy line changes, the dreaded dump the puck in and go for a line change and the fatal go for a line change when the other team has the puck and heading for our zone. These players aren’t in the minors so they should have learned by now how to go to, or jump into the play from, the bench. Is that a coaching issue? Not likely but it says much about where many of the players heads are.
(And I agree, “____RC” is the easiest to type. Make it so.)
Here we go,,,
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by Kevin van Steendelaar on Dec 17, 2011 1:56 PM EST reply actions
Here’s another good one to describe how we all feel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKI-tD0L18A
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
The suggestion that Gauthier has been talking to Roy for over a month, considering the time it takes to choose a place and everything, is absurd. He has too much respect for Martin to hang an insecure job over him for that long.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
If Roy was going to replace Martin, he would have been named right now, and that’d have made all the media guys happy.
I’d have to agree, unless Roy is very concerned about ditching the Remparts midseason since he’s the owner, coach and GM.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
If I’m Roy, and this is gonna be my first NHL coaching job in a town where the only thing I’d like hung from the rafters is my retired jersey, I don’t take over on the fly.
I line my ducks up all nice and tight during the offseason, in concert with a GM who is making personnel decisions.
Roy might be crazy, but he ain’t st00pid.
Still, I’ll believe it only when I see it.
I’m just not hot on hiring coaches straight out of junior with no pro coaching experience. I’d rather take a chance on Gerard Gallant, for example.
If Red Berenson was 20 years younger, I’d have him on the list of guys if we’re okay with both Anglophones and junior/collegiate guys. Vladamir Rucizka would be an out of left field option as well.
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I’m with you on the experience front.
Moreover, Roy’s particular kind of passion – which made him the winner he is and is the reason I shelled out too many clams to take my son to his jersey retirement – will either be a really good thing in Montreal or, just as likely, enough to cause the Bell Centre to beat the LHC to the discovery of the Higgs boson.
In the discussion of his hypothetical arrival in Montreal, it would, however, make perfect sense for him to hold off until the season is over.
Sens
Trade David Rundblad and a 2nd round pick for Kyle Turris.
Huge mistake by the Sens imo.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:21 PM EST reply actions
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
At least the Habs didn’t make the most illogical move of the day.
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Essentially what Ottawa has done in the last two years, is trade Tarasenko and a 2nd round pick for Turris.
Maybe I’m judging too early, but Tarasenko is WAY better than Turris, I don’t think Turris at his current age could put up the numbers Tarasenko has in the KHL.
At least with Rundblad they were looking at a top pairing defenseman who could run a PP in a couple years. What a hilarious trade.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
From what I understand Rundblad is one of the best defensive prospects around, and Kyle Turris is projected to be what? At best a 3rd line C?
And the 2nd on top of that?
Some still believe Turris has #1 potential, but I’d say its #2 at best.
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Turris could still be a 2nd line center, but probably not a great one. Rundbland was having some poor luck to start his career, just 24 games on NA ice. He’s probably around the same skill level as John Carlson but not as good defensively.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Great for us though.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not if Phoenix moves to Quebec.
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Hey you, stop that!
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously, I’d take Phoenix’s GM-HC combo for sure. One of a few that I’d say is a definite improvement.
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I think Mahoney is vastly overrated, but this was a great move.
i thought he took the easy way out when the NHL pushed out Gretzky. Instead of developing his young players as the plan was, he signed a bunch of vets and looked for instant middling success to sell seats. I’m still not sold that the Coyotes have much of a future.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Tippett is an excellent coach though.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, he consistently makes smart decisions to me. He’s on a heck of a leash and he keeps finding value players. The Jokinen deal to Calgary, for example. And need I say more about the Bryzgalov decision?
And I think that’s important. Gretzky’s Coyotes rushed young players. They don’t anymore. That change obviously frustrated Turris, but I think it’s better to have the guys they’ve had then playing Bødker or Tikhonov like they used to. Even Ekman-Larsson wasn’t handed anything. It’s not a lot different than the Habs’ philosophy, just executed on a budget.
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Well they may have lost Tikhonov who is a good player, and a lot of their young guys aren’t working out.
I don’t mean to say Gretzky was doing a good job, but I don’t think Mahoney is as patient as people think. He’s still never managed any real success with that group.
And while Mike Smith is working out so far, he’s a pretty bad goaltender, so I don’t expect that to continue for too long. They made the right move in backing off Bryz though.
While they’re incredibly stacked on the back end now with Yandle, Ekman-Larsson, Rundblad and Gormley, they have virtually nothing up front for prospects.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Their entire organisational strategy seems to be based on having the best defensemen possible and having a ton of replaceable parts on forward. Which is a pretty good idea for a budget team since you need less assets to build a really good defense that will be on the ice all the time than a strong forward group.
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by Stephan Cooper on Dec 17, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Overall building an insanely strong defense is never a bad move. They’re just really bereft of any talent in other areas. Doan, Whitney and Langkow are old and declining, Vrbata is good but streaky, Hanzal is great defensively but marginal on offense, Boedker is starting to put it together but who knows when that’ll happen. They need forwards with talent in a big way.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think that they’ve got such little forward talent that marginal improvements there aren’t really going to do much. You can get scoring with not particularly great players so long as they get minutes and any midrange talent isn’t going to do much for them because of the lack of quality linemates.
So its either get an impact forward or just go with the budget strategy they’ve got going right now. Sadly they’d be the perfect team to get a 1st overall pick.
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by Stephan Cooper on Dec 17, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Cunneyworth May Be Worth His Salt
Personally I like Marc Crawford… yah he’s a bit of an arse, but the guy won a cup. How many coaches out there can say that? Not sure who they could choose from but I can tell you that I don’t like the idea of Patrick Roy. Love the guy, but he’s too much of a ticking-time bomb in my opinion to be a head coach, at least in Montreal. Boucher is the guy, but he won’t be let go that quickly by Tampa. They certainly are on a slide though which doesn’t bode well for him there.
This doesn’t come at all as a surprise for me. Let’s face it folks, this team is underachieving. They’re not playing to their full potential and a new voice was needed in the room. We can still salvage the season and now it’s up to the players. Max Pacioretty has played great, but he should not be leading the team in goals which he did for almost the entire season so far. Now Cole is and he’s been doing all we could ask for. But it’s time for Cammaleri to step it up and maybe Subban can be unleashed to play like the dynamo that he is.
Read that Cunneyworth was possibly one of the hottest coaching prospects around. Florida almost hired him; he spent a few years as an assistant with the Thrashers, and for all intent and purpose, he’s a players coach, like Muller is. The guy is a former player and players like that in their coaches. Let’s see how it goes. Maybe he loses the interim tag if he does well. After all, he knows all the young players that played for him in Hamilton… another strength. Let’s win tonight folks.
http://habsfaninleafland.blogspot.com/2011/12/martins-firing-needs-to-produce-results.html
by Habs Fan in LeafLand on Dec 17, 2011 4:14 PM EST reply actions
It’s not that Crawford is an arse, it’s that he’s incompetent.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Quite. 1998 Olympics. Stats be damned, you don’t sit Gretzky and Yzerman and Sakic when gold is on the line.
I might be wrong but I don’t think Yzerman was there due to injury, or maybe it was Sakic.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
All three were there. Kariya was injured just before the Olympics though. Maybe you’re thinking of him.
You’re right. Holy hell did that team ever have a great defense. Not that any Canadian Olympic team doesn’t, but 5 will likely be HHOFers.
The biggest thing that stands out about that roster is why the hell was Rob Zamuner there? Or Shayne Corson? Who chose that roster?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Considering some of the other players at the time, you could even question the inclusion of Primeau, Linden and Desjardins. The lack of Messier astounds me, for one.
The GM was Bobby Clarke (hence Lindros as C, insead of Gretzky, Yzerman, Sakic, Bourque, etc.).
So much of that team is ridiculous.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Recchi, Gilmour, Coffey, Messier, Niedermayer, Francis, C. Lemieux…I mean, you can’t include everyone but I don’t see how Zamuner, Corson, Desjardins, Primeau and Linden get the nod over them.
Gilmour and Messier would have been so great up front.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair, three of the best centres ever were on the team. You’d have to have stuck Messier and Gilmour on wings. Or Messier on the fourth line.
I’m sure Messier could manage on Gretzky’s wing.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
I’d think no Messier for the Olympics because I suspect he was a juicer and you wouldn’t want to take that risk.
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by Stephan Cooper on Dec 17, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm, those are strong words. I don’t want to disagree per se, but he still did win with Colorado. Then again, so did Hartley and I really don’t like him very much.
by Habs Fan in LeafLand on Dec 17, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hard to argue with that, for sure!!
So who then? I’m good with Cunneyworth and give him every chance to succeed.
by Habs Fan in LeafLand on Dec 17, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Tough to know who at this point. Management has about 8 months to scout and deliberate.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ken Campbell of The Hockey News proposes in the offseason Roy and Pierre McGuire as GM if the team falters…
by Habs Fan in LeafLand on Dec 17, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Ken Campbell must have had the thought process of a turnip when arriving at that conclusion.
by Roke on Dec 17, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
…wake me up from this nightmare, please.
Well, there is a reason why the Hockey News is irrelevent nowadays.
If that happens I’ll have to seriously re-evaluate being a fan of this team.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
You can’t sit back and enjoy the fireworks?
The potential upside of such an arrangement would be that irrational impulsive fans would get to see what happens to a team that is run the way they want.
The downside is that those people are impervious to facts and never learn so we would be the only ones suffering.
I really couldn’t. With Price, Subban, Pacioretty and Eller and a solid group of prospects I’ve been feeling this team is about to break out and be a top team in this league. I don’t trust McGuire to not screw that up completely and it would basically be like getting punched in the gut for remaining a fan through the Houle years.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
McGuire’s coverage of the WJC scares me a little. He talks about the juniors a bit too fondly for my liking.
He’s a bandwagoner. He has little to no knowledge about the juniors but presents himself as a scouting expert. The necessities of his job means he would never see them play so everything is parroting second hand information.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, because Bob Mac left for greener pastures. Andrew give Adam Proteau a shallacking earlier on twitter. I was amusedly watching the back and forth between Andrew and him (and Andrew and Brian Wilde).
It wasn’t that epic, I just asked why exactly they thought Gauthier should get fired, and they didn’t come up with a good reason.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
MaxPac is on pace for 31 goals. That is more than the leading goal-scorer of either of the last two Cup winners.
There’s nothing wrong with MaxPac leading the team in goals if that’s the number he has. That’s quite beyond the simple fact that Pacioretty is very, very good.
That's not my point
I love MaxPac and happy he’s doing what he’s doing. I’d love to see him lead this team in goals with 31 or more hopefully. My point is that guys like Gionta, Gomez and especially Cammelari should be leading the way offensively on this team. Really, what does Cammelari do other than snipe!? If he’s not sniping, we have a problem. And he’s not.
by Habs Fan in LeafLand on Dec 17, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
What does he do rather than snipe? Right now, he’s basically soaking up tough defensive minutes on Plekanec’s wing so that the team’s lack of a second D pairing isn’t quite so exposed.
But really, the only problem he has is that he’s not getting PP production. There’s nothing wrong with Cammy that a functional PP wouldn’t score. And he’s getting the shots, just not the puck luck.
Seriously, though, the entire Habs’ tactical scheme right now is built around everyone else taking hits so that the DD line can look good. This isn’t a mistake — it’s a reaction to lacking a whole line of heavy lifters who could operate in tough sledding without needing to be backed by Subban-Gorges. So Martin basically asked Eller to be a defensive forward backed by Subban-Gorges, Pleky to support one of the teams’ third pairings in tough sledding, all so DD and his buddies get offensive minutes they can use to score, hopefully faster than the other guys.
by MathMan on Dec 17, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Gill’s (not all that shocking, but disappointing) regression and Markov’s setbacks have really hurt the defense this year. With Gill re-signed and Martin going with a Gill-Subban I get the impression that the expectation was that Subban would be able to carry Gill at least until December or so when Markov got back. Neither of those worked out, and the Habs are stuck with two 3rd-pairings as you mentioned.
It might have worked out better had the team not lost a line of quality defensive players (Moen, Gomez, Gionta) recently. With them in the lineup the Habs could have had an easier time muddling through with 2 top-4 defensemen.
So, a friend of mine just pointed something interesting out, regarding the french media outrage over the unilingual coach.
Only three cups have been won by French coaches: Perron, Ruel and Demers.
The media’s first criteria in evaluating any given hockey move is the impact it makes on their job.
The most important proof of leadership a player can make is talking to the media. Kostitsyn isn’t disliked because he’s lazy, it’s that he is a bad quote. The most important skill a coach can have is communication. Gainey was universally panned for his decision to remove the media from the team plane and never got good press since. And so on.
The Habs coach must speak French because he needs to speak to the media and the media are the guardians of the fans’ sacred trust.
Oh, I know why they want a French speaking coach, and I understand and accept it to some degree. But I would rather have a superior unilingual coach than a poorer bilingual one, and I don’t understand why the media can’t get on that boat.
Besides, haven’t they ever heard of translators? I’m sure Cunneyworth will provide better, albeit more English, quotes.
It’s not about BEING French but speaking French.
And we’d have to include French speaking coaches who won with other teams as well.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Thank God and let's move on -
it’s addition by subtraction … would be nice to have an A+ replacement standing by waiting in the wings, but that’s not reality. JM was routinely out-coached, his line juggling has never worked, the PP is in a shambles for the first time in 7 years. The team has talent and skill, why not try playing a style that fits the team’s talents? With 3-4 PMD in place (if Markov ever gets healthy), maybe up-tempo hockey might be worth a try. Versus trying to sit on 1-goal leads that you never hold with a strangely ineffective attempt at “puck possession” hockey. JM’s “system” never led to much in Ottawa or Florida, and the mirage of the run to the Eastern finals was just that. Just sayin’ …
It’s a mystery to me why people think that a roster built on power-on-power matchups and three-line depth, headlined by a two-way #1 center like Plekanec, would be better served by a damn-the-torpedoes pure offensive style. I think it’s entirely wishful thinking.
Incidentally, JM and his system have made the Habs a (very) positive puck-possession team which they haven’t been in 15 years or so. We should be so lucky that Cunneyworth does exactly the same thing.
I figured it out. We totally missed it, but it’s obvious.
When Gauthier sacrificed Pearn to the Hockey Gods he was rewarded with four straight wins, but clearly that was insufficient. Gauthier must simply have decided that a bigger sacrifice was needed to appease the Hockey Gods. The Habs can’t possibly lose now.
50-0 for the rest of the season. Then we’ll beat the 96 Wings’ record by 1 win.
(it still sounds weird saying the Wings won 62 games)
I’m thinking a head coach is only 10 times more important than an assistant, so only 40 straight wins followed by .500.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that would imply that Martin was actually running the team. Everyone knows Muller did the real work. Presumably once he was gone that job fell to Cunneyworth, right?
Although now that means Ladouceur will run things doesn’t it? Do we like him?
We need to wait for a timeout to see if Ladouceur talks emphatically before we decide if we like him and he’s running the team.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Firing a coach is more powerful than an assistant but you also have to factor in the fickleness of the hockey gods, so the power of any sacrifice decays exponentially with time. So a ten times as potent sacrifice might only last for twice the time.
L = S x e^λt
L=Length of positive result (i.e. strength of effect)
S= Strength of sacrifice
λ= Decay constant
t= Unit time since sacrifice
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by Stephan Cooper on Dec 17, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
This shit just got real.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Dec 17, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
You’re a physicist? Awesome. I’m a Biochemist.
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by Stephan Cooper on Dec 17, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
You'd be hard pressed...
…to find someone around these parts who doesn’t understand the rationale behind the Habs’ desire to hire coaches who can communicate in French. I was born and raised in Montreal and, other than a few years of schooling in London, Ontario, continue to reside here. I speak fully fluent French as do my three teenage children.
None of it is lost on me.
At the same time, I think most everyone also accepts that this unwritten policy comes at a cost, much as Boivin was quite direct in regards to as he exited his position with the org.
With that in mind, there is really no harm in exploring compromises and alternatives that might widen the scope of talent the Habs can look at when trying to hire a head coach. Put another way, pure acquiescence to the status quo isn’t necessarily the only route to go
There has always been an ebb and flow to the language issue, not only as it pertains to the team, but also the way Quebec has evolved.
Like most everything, a language can be learned. It’s a simplistic notion, but maybe it’s enough to satisfy the voices that demand a head coach who can communicate in French. I’m not saying this is the solution, just that it’s a worthwhile discussion. And there are a whole host of other possibilities.
I made the point earlier, which I believe earned a few guffaws – and I’m jiggy with that – that by having the opportunity to inject a unilinqual anglophone into the head coaching positon in mid-season – he’d have a tough time doing it in the off-season – Molson (a presumption, yes) has the opportunity to break with the modern precedent next season if, a big if, Cunneyworth achieves great success.
No, the world will not turn on its head, the Middle East will not become a beacon of peace, and a barrel of oil will still go for something in excess of $100.
It’s just about breaking with modern precedent. Baby steps.
And maybe the org will just not be able to. There will be too much pressure come to bear. I fully understand and accept that this the most likely end game.
But a man is allowed to hope the org can open its door a bit wider when it comes to coaching talent.
Time for Randy to whip out the textbook.
Who would you call an “outstanding coaching talent” in the nhl right now?
And which upcoming coach would deserve the mention?
Originally posted in the wrong spot. Getting used to the site.
Depends on what your team needs, obviously; e.g., St-Louis needed a hardass like Hitchcock, but I don’t think that would play well in Montreal. The team needs stability and continuity.
An outstanding talent? I’d probably go with Babcock. If he’s anything, it’s consistent.
I’m not one for NHL-inexperienced coaches but believe Dineen was probably among the most qualified from the minor ranks. He’s been picked off. Boughner and Kleinendorst come to mind.
Don’t worry about the replies, we all fuck those up all the time.
So I think we agree on a point: you want an outstanding coach, most probably you have to hire a coach from the minor ranks. I don’t think Babcock is becoming free anytime soon.
But I look at Boucher: as outstanding a talent to come out of the minor ranks as there ever was in the last decade and still, he’s taking a beating this season. I look at the habs last hirings: Vigneault, Therrien, Julien, Carbo, Martin… Martin isn’t Bowman, but I think he’s a good coach, does the job. Carbo was horrible, a simple result of cronyism. Therrien wasn’t bad, but he couldn’t hope to stay for long, as he’s one of the last of the old-school screamer coaches, one has to wonder if he’ll ever coach in the NHL again. Vigneault and Julien aren’t bad, I think.
My point is twofold:
1) A good coach won’t last on his first NHL job. They all get canned once or twice before they grow a thick skin and learn to assert themselves against prima donna and deal with the ongoing pressures from management.
2) The habs, outside of bouts of cronyism (Carbo, again), have actually had a pretty successful record of drafting quality french speaking coaches, with the occasional experienced one who happened to be available.
There are 17 teams in the Q right now. Say you have, at any time, 3 guys in there who are AHL coach material. There are 30 AHL teams and the habs, if they can’t help against other NHL teams poaching their good young coaches, have enough resources and outlets to get a good french-speaking coach out of all of this.
The one thing I dislike about the whole ordeal (people and media commenting and whatnot) is that nobody seems to beleive Gauthier when he says Cunneyworth can learn the darn language. C’mon Randy, you pull this off, you get some pretty good payoff.
And that last point is why the Habs should be able to look at a wider berth of candidates. Coaching in Montreal is the brass ring for most anybody with a decent set of gonads. If they are prepared to make the effort to learn the language, the broader media will get it. At least I hope so.
As long as the team produces. Otherwise, that is a one big, exposed left flank.,
I have to agree on Carbo. I loved what he brought as a player. I was deeply disappointed by his short stint and obvious impatience as a minor league coach, and subsequent comments that he would only coach at the NHL level.
Depends on what your team needs, obviously; e.g., St-Louis needed a hardass like Hitchcock, but I don’t think that would play well in Montreal. The team needs stability and continuity.
An outstanding talent? I’d probably go with Babcock. If he’s anything, it’s consistent.
I’m not one for NHL-inexperienced coaches but believe Dineen was probably among the most qualified from the minor ranks. He’s been picked off. Boughner and Kleinendorst come to mind.















