Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Why We're Skeptical Of LeBron James

Doing Some Research: Canadiens Choices For the Shootout


I loathe the shootout.  I'm a fan of the game at all levels, from junior to the pros and the international game, and I've always hated this way of ending a hockey game.  Give me unlimited sudden death overtime anyday of the week, and failing that option, call it a tie after 5-20 minutes.  So deep is my dislike for this arbitrary means of deciding tie games, that I've now taken to turning off the TV in protest after 65 minutes of NHL action. 

That said, as a fan of a NHL team, I must accept that this concept does exist, and that it does have real consequence in the standings.  So, whatever advantage the Canadiens can gain from the shootout should be explored.  The Canadiens possess no Jussi Jokinen or Thomas Vanek type expert that is known to anyone (and obviously to Jacques Martin), so finding quality shooters requires a bit of that research that our head coach likes to talk about. 

Career Shootout Stats (NHL)

Player

Goals

Attempts

SH%

Jaroslav Spacek

1

1

100

Max Pacioretty

2

4

50.0

David Desharnais

1

2

50.0

Andrei Markov

4

10

40.0

Brian Gionta

18

49

36.7

Scott Gomez

6

19

31.6

Mike Cammalleri

7

27

25.9

Andrei Kostitsyn

5

20

25.0

Brian Willsie

3

12

25.0

Erik Cole

1

5

20.0

Tomas Plekanec

3

20

15.0

Travis Moen

0

1

0.0

P.K. Subban

0

2

0.0



Martin was limited in choices last night, with no Spacek, Markov, Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, or Willsie from the list above to choose from.  And he only had very limited sample sizes for Pacioretty, Desharnais, Cole, Moen or Subban to draw from his notebook (I think it's on page 32).  He took a gamble on Pacioretty that paid off, and wisely chose Gionta, but his choice of Tomas Plekanec to lead off the shootout is baffling based on history.  While Scott Gomez may indeed be playing hurt, if he is not well enough to take a shootout attempt he probably shouldn't be in the lineup, and he's demonstrably better at this then Plekanec is.  Plekanec would have to go five for his next five to catch Gomez's percentage.  Plekanec is a bad choice for the top 3 altogether, and a terrible choice for the top 2, who should always be your team's two best shooters.

But wait, there's more!  Yes, the AHL has full shootout stats from 2005-06 to last year.  The AHL actually introduced the shootout during the NHL lockout year of 2004-05, but those stats aren't available on the AHL website for some reason.  In the AHL, they actually use 5 shooters instead of the 3 that are used in the NHL, so we have more data to draw from:

Star-divide

Career Shootout Stats (AHL)

Player

Goals

Attempts

SH%

Frederic St. Denis

1

1

100

Andrei Kostitsyn

12

21

57.1

P.K. Subban

3

7

42.9

Dany Masse

2

5

40.0

Aaron Palushaj

9

23

39.1

Alexander Avtsin

3

9

33.3

Gabriel Dumont

2

6

33.3

Michael Blunden

1

3

33.3

Ryan White

1

3

33.3

Garrett Stafford

6

27

22.2

Lars Eller

2

9

22.2

Mathieu Darche

4

19

21.1

Brian Willsie

4

20

20.0

David Desharnais

2

10

20.0

Max Pacioretty

2

10

20.0

Andrew Conboy

0

1

0.0

Petteri Nokelainen

0

1

0.0

Hunter Bishop

0

3

0.0

Andreas Engqvist

0

3

0.0

For whatever reason, Andrei Kostitsyn's dominance in the AHL at this hasn't translated well so far in the NHL, but if he's available, I'd still give him a shot if I were in Martin's position.  Subban hasn't had a lot of opportunity in either league, but given his skill set he should be an option, especially in a situation like last night.  Aaron Palushaj would've been a choice that showed Martin had done some research as well, as he's one of a few Habs skaters in the organization that seems to have above average skill in this event.  Interestingly, Pacioretty and Desharnais have not shown a lot of proficiency at the AHL level despite their skill set and reputation. 

Martin should also not hesitate to use defensemen: they are 5/13 at the NHL level (38.5%) and 10/35 at the AHL level (28.6%).  Given the skill of some of Montreal's defenders, this may not be a bad route to take. 

As for the other half of the shootout, here's our organization's goaltenders in the shootout, both NHL and AHL stats:

Goalie

League

Saves

Attempts

SV%

Carey Price

NHL

70

102

.686

Peter Budaj

NHL

65

104

.625

Karri Ramo

NHL

8

15

.533

Nathan Lawson

NHL

2

6

.333

Carey Price

AHL

9

10

.900

Robert Mayer

AHL

18

24

.750

Karri Ramo

AHL

41

59

.695

Nathan Lawson

AHL

55

83

.663

Peter Delmas

AHL

1

4

.250

Carey Price earned a reputation for shootout excellence based on one 'clutch' win in the 2007 WJC's vs. the USA, despite the fact that Peter Mueller beat him 2 out 3 tries in that shootout.  He is the Canadiens best option in goal, though, even if he is not all that dominant.  Budaj is a slight dropoff, while in the AHL, it looks like Robert Mayer might have some talent in this discipline, at least a lot more than one would expect from his regular numbers. 

So, what is the ideal Canadiens shootout lineup?  Well, here's my preferred options:

1.  Brian Gionta, 2.  Andrei Markov, 3. Andrei Kostitsyn, 4. Scott Gomez, 5. Mike Cammalleri, 6. Max Pacioretty, 7. P.K. Subban, 8. Aaron Palushaj, 9. David Desharnais, 10. Alexander Avtsin.

Yep, from what I can tell, Plekanec isn't even top 10 in the organization at this discipline.  It's a stunning deficiency for the team's best forward, but there's no evidence to justify his lofty position under Martin.

That said, whatever hunch Martin had about Pacioretty paid off last night, but he's got a ways to go to prove to me he should go second, even with a depleted lineup.  Gionta, based on the percentages, should've been top 2. 

What's your shootout lineup?  Feel free to post it in the comments. 

Comment 20 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

It is funny that people think that a goaltender who stops a lot of breakaways is great, but it is such a small portion of a goaltenders arsenal. I think Price needs to develop some unpredictability when it comes to the shootout.

There is no need to have any recovery options on a penalty shot. Maybe he needs to be more aggressive, poke checks, overplaying and guessing like Thomas does. He seems to get buried a lot on quick snap shots and biting on initial moves.

The things that make Price great are not necessarily highlighted in a shootout and hence he has been fairly average throughout his career. The World Junior rep always kills me because he gave up 4-5 goals, the only reason they won was because they scored 6.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 15, 2011 12:28 PM EST reply actions  

Price got the Canadian team to the shootout killing off a 5 on 3 in OT in which he faced over 10 shots. That was where he showed his excellence, his ‘clutch’ ability, or whatever you want to call it. The shootout was all Toews vs. Mueller. Jack Johnson also went 1 for 2 vs. Price in that shootout, with Price only stopping the last one by turning sideways on the goal line with the puck in between his pads.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Nov 15, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

And he admitted that he guessed on the winning save because Mueller had beaten him 5 hole in the WHL earlier in the year on a breakaway. Re-watch the tape and he guessed 5-hole on a previous Mueller opportunity that he buried glove or stick side.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 15, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that’s a good point. It seems like unpredictable or unorthodox goalies have always been great in the shootout. Hasek is a great example. He almost always made the first move and always looked like he’d be easy to beat, but then the player would shoot right into him. Used to drive me crazy.

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d like to see some crazy charges and stuff; more aggressivity from Carey.

Plekanec’s move last night – I feel like I’ve seen that from him so many times and it doesn’t work. I’m also surprised that Cammalleri doesn’t have a better percentage, given that he has such a sweet shot.

Montreal Canadiens///Toronto Blue Jays///Baltimore Ravens

by rsty on Nov 15, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Gotta put things into perspective a bit. First off, all the samples for the shootout are so tiny. Gionta is a shootout vet and he doesn’t even have 50 shots. At this point it’s hard to tell whether there’s any sustainability.

The other thing is a point of comparison. 50% is a heck of a lot for a shooter with any number of shots; no one who’s shot more than 10 times is over 60%. As such, Markov and Gionta look pretty decent.

.686 puts Price as one of the better goalies in the league.

by MathMan on Nov 15, 2011 5:07 PM EST reply actions  

Price ranks 16th among goalies who’ve faced 100 shootout attempts, so I’d place him squarely in the middle. However without his current poor run, he would rank 12th. Still middle of the pack among starters though.

The best goalies are either floppers and flailers like Johan Hedberg (.785, #1 in the league) or guys who stay deep in the net and rely on reflexes like Fleury (.768, #2) and Lundqvist (.764, #3).

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess the thing that bugs me is you don’t hear about the Canadiens practicing the shootout. That’s fine in principle, but then if they don’t, what the heck is Martin basing his decisions on? If they practiced the shootout and Plekanec had better numbers there than he’s shown in the game situations, that’s a bit different. But really, it seems like he’s making a bet that isn’t very reliable.

The AHL attempts are why I still value Kostitsyn higher than even Gomez, I don’t think you can discount them. The 41 combined attempts puts him second on the team in experience, and at 34.1%, make him a pretty efficient shooter.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Nov 15, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

The one guy I always felt would score in the shootout was Koivu. Just looked it up and he’s 38.7% in his career, just a bit better than Gionta, with far fewer attempts.

In some ways I don’t mind the team being crappy in the shootout, it doesn’t really tell us much about the team, and shootout wins no longer matter in the tiebreaker format. And we can see how teams with a ton of shootout wins can end up looking very pedestrian in the playoffs, like Pittsburgh last year. They made the playoffs almost entirely by going to extra time.

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:08 PM EST reply actions  

Thing is, with the tiny number of shooters involved, the shootout might as well be a coin flip. It’s more fun to watch than a coin flip, of course, but if the best shootout team in the league is more likely to win an average shootout than the best faceoff team in the league an average faceoff, I’ll be surprised. I bet all the skill in the world won’t get your odds much higher than 55%.

by MathMan on Nov 15, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not so sure of that. Some teams have been able to sustain high win percentage in the shootout over several years. Pittsburgh for example is 37-14 over the last 4 years and 54-24 over the last 6.

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

They’re also such a good team that they can devote practice time to the shootout, as we saw in 24/7.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Nov 15, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

So their win rate is a bit over 66% on a sample of less than 80?

Doesn’t strike me as overwhelming evidence for shootout talent, but then, I don’t think you could get any confidence statistically on such a tiny sample.

by MathMan on Nov 15, 2011 5:26 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Sample size is actually larger than that though, because you have to look at every shot by both teams, so assuming that the shootout ends as quickly as possible (4 shots) it would still be 312 shots. Still not a huge sample size, but big enough to see that their talent is a factor. Especially when the actual number of shots is probably closer to 500.

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is that while 500 or even 312 shots would be a decent amount, no individual shooter has anywhere that many. It makes it very hard to evaluate shooter talent when nobody has more than 63 career shots.

I don’t think shootout shooting percentage is anywhere near as luck-driven as overall shooting percentage, but that’s still an awfully small number of shots to judge a guy by.

That makes statistical methods of evaluation next to useless, except to tell you that with only six events in the average shootout, luck is going to play a huge factor.

by MathMan on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree that luck is a huge factor, but I think it’s pretty well reflected in their record how many good shootout players the Penguins have. I found their overall numbers.

502 total shots going both ways.
253 shots for, 249 shots against.
88 goals for, 66 goals against.
34.8 shooting %
73.5 save %

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that a function of them being a good team or just a different coaching strategy? Honestly without shootout points last year Pittsburgh accumulated 83 points. That 10 point gap over Montreal goes away, as the Habs only gained 9 points from that skill competition, putting them at 85

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

87 points for Montreal actually. And this is eliminating a point for a regulation tie/OT loss.

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Different way of looking at things

In the previous 10 games, Montreal has gained 3 points on Toronto, 2 points on Ottawa (and passed them in the standings), 1 point on Buffalo.

The Bruins have gained 1 point on Montreal and have 2 games in hand. We’re still trending up.

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

Unsurprisingly the worst team save percentage in the shootout is Philadelphia. So goalie talent is a big factor. They’re sitting a just .585

The worst shooters are the Panthers, just 22.8%

Montreal sits 13th in save% and 25th in shooting%

Co-editor of Eyes on the Prize
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/andrewberkshire

by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 15, 2011 5:58 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Montreal Canadiens.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Triple_low_five_small
The Bergevin Bunch – Who should be on the Canadiens’ Shortlist?
Triple_low_five_small
Anti-GM Race: The Search for the Worst Candidate
Triple_low_five_small
Habs GM Search: My Personal Shortlist
Ts_small
Vintage Hockey Jersey Scam
Predsgame_small
So yeah...
Lokomotiv_yaroslavl_logo_small
Welcome Mount Royal Soccer to SB Nation
Triple_low_five_small
The Montreal Canadiens and the Future
Picture_1_small
Other Crazy Eklund Trade Rumours
Picture_1_small
Randy Cunneyworth's Link To Homer Simpson

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

A Glossary of Analytical Stat Terms

For those unfamiliar with common terms on EOTP such as Fenwick, PDO or relative Corsi, here is a handy explanation.

Click here to access the glossary


Managing Editor

2987845178_b30976f7f9_small Kevin van Steendelaar

Feature Editors

A_new_eotp_logo_small Robert L

P1020029_small Andrew Berkshire

Butch-montreal__2__-_copie__4__small Francis B.

Small Chris Boyle

Lokomotiv_yaroslavl_logo_small Bruce Peter

Small Stephan Cooper

Contributing Writers

Small Olivier

Jp_small Joe Pelletier

Profile_small Melissa_Boufounos