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Around SBN: FSU To Big 12 'Inevitable,' According To Report

Where Do We Stand?

About a year ago, I was like most fans when it came to advanced hockey statistics: On the outside looking in. As a result, over the last year, I have spent a fair amount of time immersing myself in this burgeoning area of analysis. In the process, I have been exposed to advanced stats through various sources and have begun to appreciate that, when analyzed in proper context, they are a tool helpful to the development of a deeper understanding of the game. I believe most fans want to understand hockey at a deeper level, and becoming familiar with these stats is an important step in that direction. What I want to do right now is give a primer of sorts and then break down the first portion of the season (as of November 10th).

We'll start simple. "Shots" on net are undeniably important in hockey. The more shots you get on net, usually the more likely you are to be successful. This is due to two different things: 1) Shot volume over time produces more goals, and 2) if you're shooting more, that means you have the puck more than the other team. When you have the puck, the other team isn't scoring. For the purposes of this breakdown, the number under the shots heading is the percentage of total shots fired while that team is playing at even strength while the score is tied that were fired by the team in question, multiplied by 1000 to avoid decimals. For example, Team A registers 165 shots, while surrendering 122 shots within these parameters. They will have recorded .575 of all the shots, 57.5% or for the purposes of this breakdown, a rating of 575. The reason I'm using these parameters are pretty simple, when a team has a lead, they tend to play more passive and protect it. Within the stats community it is called score effects. It's why you often see a team get massively outshot when they blow out another team. Those situations are relatively meaningless in analyzing how good a team is. If you're up 5-1, you don't care about getting shots on the other team's net anymore. Similarly, special teams don't tell us much here. On a powerplay any team can outshoot the opponent.

Creating a bigger picture of possession we move on to Fenwick. Fenwick is a measure of the same things as shots for/against, only it also includes shots that miss the net. So what you end up getting with Fenwick is a measure of how well a team gets its shots through the other team and towards the net. The extra data gives us a better measure of puck possession because it is a larger sample size. I'll be expressing Fenwick in the same way as shots.

The final measure of puck possession we're using is Corsi, which also includes shots that were blocked. Increasing the sample amount of data once more gives us a larger sample size and therefore a more stable metric. Corsi will be expressed the same was as shots and Fenwick. Personally I like Fenwick as a measure of offensive success more than Corsi because you're putting shots through the opposing team. Corsi is a better measure of puck possession, Fenwick, to me, shows how successful that team is at translating puck possession into opportunities. While these statistics measure puck possession they don't guarantee success over a short period of time. This is where random variation comes in. Teams and players get hot and cold, puck luck comes and goes.

This brings us to PDO (PDO is not an initialism, it is simply the username of the person who created the metric on a message board), which I'll be using PDO to express a team's luck in both scoring and preventing goals against. PDO is a combination of a team's shooting percentage and a team goaltender's save percentage. Expressed the same way I have expressed the other statistics we are using here, PDO is expected to stay close to 1000, for good teams and bad ones. Follow me after the jump to see why this happens and where the Habs stand.

Star-divide

The first question among people who are new to PDO ask is always "But why would a team automatically have a PDO of 1000? What if one team has better shooters than another team? Or a better goalie?" That happens, but the end result always ends up close to 1000. This is largely because the more shooters and goalies play, the more consistent their shooting and saving percentages are, especially at even strength. The more minutes a player plays, the more their PDO regresses to the mean of 1000, the same goes for teams. The significance of this is simply high shooting percentage is not sustainable in the NHL. It isn't good or bad to have a PDO above or below 1000, it is just an expression of luck. However being far above 1000 means a team is likely to regress negatively, while being far below means a team is likely to regress positively.

At the individual level, Cam Charron charted every player in the NHL last season to illustrate this trend. The x-axis on the graph is the number of minutes played, and the y-axis is the player's PDO.

Pdo_medium

As you can see, the variance in PDO becomes much smaller the more time goes by. Contrary to what many believe, higher shot totals are a better indicator of talent than high shooting percentages. Alex Ovechkin scored 65 goals 2007-08 with a 14.57% shooting percentage, which is higher than average, but not by much. It's certainly more sustainable than David Desharnais' 27.27% of this season. David Desharnais isn't a "Better shooter" than Ovechkin, nor does he "Pick his shots", he's just been lucky in scoring a few goals while not generating many shots. Ovechkin on the other hand is an elite player who's constantly generating offense. Even if he has a very unlucky year, like last year, he's still an excellent player because he's always generating offense.

Another question that often comes up is "If all teams have a PDO of 1000, doesn't that mean all teams are equal?" Not at all. A team could have a PDO of 1000 or even sub-1000 and still be a dominant team if they outshoot the competition by a fair margin. If your team scores on 8% of your shots at even strength, and your goaltenders save 92% of the shots against your team at even strength, yet you outshoot teams regularly 32-25 for example, you'll be scoring 2.56 goals per game, compared to the other teams scoring 2 goals per game against you. This hypothetical is at even strength remember, so special teams are not factored in. Most of every game is played at even strength however, and how a team plays at even strength is the best way to predict how good any team is.

A high PDO score means that a team is either getting unsustainably high shooting or save percentage over a given time. A low one means that team is getting the opposite. Neither high or low PDOs last very long. Puck possession however, is sustainable. Good teams like the Red Wings have proven this time and time again. Teams that dominate puck possession win games more often than they lose. As luck evens out, which it inevitably does, puck possession becomes the determining factor in wins and losses.

Now let's look at all 30 NHL teams and see where Montreal fits:

All statistics for this breakdown were taken from www.timeonice.com

All statistics are within the parameters of even strength play while the score is tied.

Teams Shots Fenwick Corsi PDO
Nashville Predators 431 422 415 1062
Minnesota Wild 427 427 428 1058
Toronto Maple Leafs 502 497 474 1047
Dallas Stars 493 482 461 1028
Philadelphia Flyers 533 509 492 1026
Edmonton Oilers 483 482 451 1019
Tampa Bay Lightning 485 464 460 1018
New York Rangers 405 434 450 1018
Buffalo Sabres 469 460 469 1017
Florida Panthers 493 525 521 1016
Phoenix Coyotes 529 518 517 1011
Los Angeles Kings 493 478 497 1011
Winnipeg Jets 545 508 505 1008
Montreal Canadiens 526 520 515 1007
Colorado Avalanche 496 504 507 1006
Chicago Blackhawks 562 571 580 1004
New Jersey Devils 520 538 541 995
New York Islanders 484 498 491 994
Anaheim Ducks 421 408 418 991
Detroit Red Wings 597 570 559 983
Pittsburgh Penguins 502 520 533 981
St. Louis Blues 563 555 546 979
Calgary Flames 514 520 531 977
Ottawa Senators 490 504 491 977
San Jose Sharks 529 527 521 971
Columbus Blue Jackets 459
460
461
968
Boston Bruins 516 528 548 955
Vancouver Canucks 529 533 547 951
Carolina Hurricanes 451 469 479 936
Washington Capitals 550 553 573 919



Observations:

  • Montreal places 10th in shots, 10th in Fenwick, 13th in Corsi, and 14th in PDO. In spite of all the injuries, and yes, those are a significant factor, the Canadiens are solidly straddling the top 1/3 of the NHL in puck possession while punching about at even in PDO. This means that our Habs aren't really too unlucky at even strength. Most of the Canadiens problems so far have been on special teams, so this isn't very surprising, but it bodes really well long term that the Canadiens have been so successful with so many injuries.
  • Washington is scary good, which anyone could tell you, but they've also been remarkably unlucky. That they still have 9 wins with those numbers is amazing. When their PDO regresses to the mean, they have to be considered the team to beat in the East. They're a powerhouse. (I know, Washington is a great team, groundbreaking revelation)
  • Chicago looks like the team that won the cup two years ago. Their possession is ridiculous. They're PDO is already at the mean, which combined with their possession numbers puts them in elite team status. They haven't had a hot streak like Toronto or Dallas, so what you're seeing now is what Chicago is, at least at even strength.
  • Detroit is amazing as per usual. The stories about them struggling are all about narrative. They are, after all, the team that defined puck possession for the last 15 years. Unfortunately for them, their top guys have been really unlucky to start the year. Datsyuk and Zetterberg have been dominant on puck possession but are having trouble converting.
  • Looking at St. Louis' numbers, Davis Payne was fired for no good reason. St. Louis drove the play at even strength like an elite team, they've just been unlucky.
  • Florida has trouble getting shots through but their possession is startlingly good, in spite of their strong start I didn't expect that. They will probably regress a little bit, but they could be pushing for the playoffs if their possession numbers hold.
  • Nashville is both the luckiest team in the league right now, and the most passive. Their possession numbers make them look lottery worthy. An odd coincidence is that Anaheim is equally bad, since they faced off against each other last season in the playoffs. Anaheim however hasn't had the luck that Nashville has. Unless Nashville starts playing significantly better, they're going to regress in a big way.
  • Consensus playoff teams according to the media in Buffalo, New York, Tampa Bay, and Los Angeles are shockingly awful with puck possession. All of them are currently riding the percentages currently and are likely to regress, although LA looks significantly better than the other three.
  • Toronto, Dallas and Minnesota are bound for some massive regression soon, it has already started for Toronto. It may get ugly for these guys.

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Link, please?

Can you share a link as to where this data is coming from? When I look at Behind The Net, for example, I come up with a PDO in 5-on-5 for Nashville of 1011, nowhere near your figure.

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to helping you save on hockey equipment, accessories, and NHL apparel.

by Dirk Hoag on Nov 14, 2011 7:22 AM EST reply actions  

whoops, 1015 actually, but still...

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to helping you save on hockey equipment, accessories, and NHL apparel.

by Dirk Hoag on Nov 14, 2011 7:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah, there’s a catch here — the stats you read on behindthenet.ca are for all situations at even strength; what Andrew is describing here only covers situations with the score tied.

Limiting the analysis to the score being tied eliminates score effects, but the downside is that the sample is much smaller, especially this early in the season. A team like Washington is ridiculously unlucky with the score tied, but very fortunate otherwise (1023 overall PDO) which explains why they’re often tying games in which they fall behind.

I’d be very reluctant to rely exclusively on score-tied metrics so early in the season, but thankfully Montreal has strong overall metrics with a relatively neutral PDO when all 5-on-5 situations are considered — in fact they look better by the overall metrics than they do with just the score-tied ones. The Habs are a very good even-strength team.

As for Nashville, which you’re probably more interested in, they get badly outshot (bottom 5 shots for and against) overall but are quite a bit lucky; they’re just much much luckier with the score tied.

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 8:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah sample size can be an issue here, especially with St. Louis. Jaro might have let in a lot of first shot goals skewing the numbers a fair bit. :) How many games did Nashville play vs. Halak? lol

Considering Ottawa’s reputation of sucking from the start of games only to dominate the 3rd period, these are impressive indicators for a team that was supposed to be an also ran.

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by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

That’s fine, I’m totally open to that characterization of the Preds, as especially during the first two weeks they had difficulty just breaking out of their own zone.

I do wonder if perhaps the window could be opened a bit wider to broaden the scope of data for “important hockey” without suffering to much due to score effects, such as “within 1 goal during the first two periods, tied during the 3rd” or something.

I still don’t see where the data came from, however – does timeonice have team-level scripts like this, or was it compiled game-by-game?

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to helping you save on hockey equipment, accessories, and NHL apparel.

by Dirk Hoag on Nov 14, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I believe timeonice does have scripts for close, tied etc.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

If anyone has the scripts for close they should post them. Would be interesting to see.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I believe that exact definition of “close” has been used by JLikens over at Objective NHL in the past.

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be a really cool metric to look at.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Taking forever to load, like 10 minutes so far.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I was trying that earlier but it timed out.

53.9% Fenwick. 1004 PDO. Niiiice.

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at PK Subban’s row. 60% across the board! O_o

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Cole’s numbers are also impressive, as are Plekanec’s.

Palushaj is possessing well but he can’t get shots through. I’m guessing that will change as he gets a bit older.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Setting Cole loose against third-level opposition is just not fair.

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m starting to wonder what Gionta could do if he and Cole switched roles.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s so nice to have depth.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Finally got it loaded, that’s looking pretty damn good. I wonder what kind of bump we’ll see when Markov returns. Now I’m really interested to see how good this team actually is.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey Dirk. The information was compiled on Nov. 10th. All of it is from timeonice.com

Here is Nashville’s current status: http://www.timeonice.com/mplayershots1112tied.php?team=NSH&first=20001&last=21230&hv=0

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Looks like teams are figuring out Tampa’s 1-3-1 system pretty well, NHL.

Holy crap, St. Louis fired their coach with those kinds of numbers? Bravo, Jaro. Bravo.

Toronto has had some amazing PDO, but their underlying numbers aren’t terrible. I mean, they’re way better than Buffalo.

Gotta be impressed with Ottawa and Winnipeg. Never would’ve pegged them for those kind of numbers at season’s start.

Best teams look to be Detroit, Chicago, Washington, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Boston, San Jose and New Jersey. Montreal is right there with the last 3, but oddly enough, so is Calgary. Oh yeah, and St. Louis…. yikes.

That being said, PDO should be slightly better for teams with better than average goalies. A team of 18 shooters should be expected to regress more than a team of 2-3 goalies. But anything +/- 10 PDO points is probably just a random variance.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

I was really surprised at how good some of the teams that are supposed to be terrible are. Of course there’s going to be a problem with sample size, one game can mess with the results at this point, but every metric at this point in the season is pretty useless if we get right down to it.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh, the more metrics the better, though. I’d like to see how these numbers progress over the whole year.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

For Twitter Updates on Puck Worlds, follow @puckworlds. For updates plus additional witty banter from yours truly, follow @saskhab.

by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Stephan and I were thinking about putting out a breakdown like this quarterly. It should be a lot simpler now that I don’t have to write a giant primer in front of it.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

The team that’s freaking me out is Florida. Maybe they’re just hot but I was not expecting this kind of underlying numbers from them. Tallon may not be as dumb as advertised,

by Stephan Cooper on Nov 14, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah that was supremely weird to me as well, especially because their game against Montreal showed anything but those numbers.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

"The Philadelphia Flyers Shoot Better Than Entire League"

This would’ve been a funny alternative title to the post. High PDO, good on dominating shots on goal, but middling on CORSI and to a lesser degree, Fenwick. Those are some accurate shooters they have there, scoring on a high percentage of shots and not missing wide very often.

You would think Carolina would be in Columbus land with numbers like that. They must be relatively decent at coming from behind.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

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by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 10:13 AM EST reply actions  

I would guess for Carolina that they might give up the first goal a lot, but Ward doesn’t let it get out of hand either. Most games his GA is under 3, whereas Mason lets in 3+ almost every game the last 3 years.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Special teams could also be a plus for them, too. Columbus is getting terrible results across the board.

Puck Worlds: Chasing Pucks from here to Turku.

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by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s reflected pretty well in Eric Staal. What a nightmare season he’s had so far. And he’s actually been playing pretty well which is crazy.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Score effect is important, I know I looked at Chicago’s corsi during their Stanley Cup season and it was pretty poor, but looking at the numbers at even strength when tied there was a massive difference. One number was average, the other number was close to best in the league.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

That would make sense seeing as they often blew teams out. They’re such a good team, it’s ridiculous.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for a very interesting and informative article! I’ve actually bookmarked it, for the all-too-frequent occasions when I get mixed up on the difference between Fenwick and Corsi. Sadly, I see that my Oilers are probably due for a regression as well, possibly one that’s already underway. We suspected, but it’s depressing to see the numbers so starkly bear it out.

At the risk of nitpicking, however, there is one thing that I take a bit of issue with, and it is this sentence:

The stories about [the Red Wings] struggling are all about narrative.

What, precisely, do you mean by this? I ask because I am seeing the word “narrative” used far too often as a pejorative – as signifying “wrong” or even “dishonest,” and that isn’t what the word means. If you mean to say that stories about the Red Wings’ “struggles” are exaggerated, or premature, or simply incorrect, then do so, but let’s stop abusing “narrative” – it isn’t, nor should it be, a derogatory term.

End rant. As I said, I did enjoy this article very much, and would dearly love to see an update of the numbers further on in the season!

by Chunklets on Nov 14, 2011 12:52 PM EST reply actions  

Its used as a perjorative here at times due the tendancy for the “mainstream media” to favour storytelling over analysis.

by Stephan Cooper on Nov 14, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. It is used because the media likes to create the narrative, not follow it.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that they do have this tendency, although they’re by no means alone in that; storytelling is a very human phenomenon one, and a positive one at that. In short, I’d like to see equal time given to storytelling and analysis.

by Chunklets on Nov 14, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s nothing inherently wrong with storytelling; there are a lot of very interesting human stories in hockey. A story about the path Desharnais took to get to the NHL is perfectly fine, for example, and a fine application of the storyteller’s art.

The problem is that the media creates narratives, often without respect for the facts, and presents them as expert analysis.

For example, they notice Subban making a couple of turnovers leading to goals against, decide that he’s struggling (when he is, in fact, dominant) and then invent a cause for this perceived struggling and write stories around that (sophomore slump, risk/reward). Or they note that Detroit’s record isn’t as great as they are used to, decide that they are struggling (rather than being a dominant club suffering from bad luck) and invent reasons why this must be (aging, etc.).

Or they note that Montreal is 1-6 to start the season and decide that the team is playing badly, and that it is playing badly because it is weak — and then write big stories about how many mistakes Gauthier has made and how he must realize how far off the right path he is. That Montreal has been dominating most of those games and ran in a handful of hot goalies does not factor into this narrative.

Storytelling is fine. Storytelling masquerading as analysis is not fine. Storytelling presented as analysis while going against the facts is worse than “not fine”.

This is why people around here aren’t too hot on the narratives. They’re often made up, and frequently just plain wrong as a result. And because they’re presented on very public platform, those erroneous narratives get more mindshare than serious fact-based analysis, which is annoying to people who appreciate the latter.

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   3 recs

Indeed – that’s a great explanation, MathMan! It isn’t the existence of narrative, but rather the existence of shoddy narrative, that is the problem.

by Chunklets on Nov 14, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Hence why we always say create the narrative.

In another thread we mentioned placing together a bunch of clips of poor Crosby coverage and giveaways and presenting him as a bad player. This is essentially what the MSM does when they churn out a shoddy narrative.

Instead of correcting themselves, they prefer to feed it. The end result essentially being a lie.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup – create the narrative, and make sure you do a proper job of it. I like this notion!

by Chunklets on Nov 14, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically what Stephan said. The reason I use that term specifically is the tendency for MSM and some fans to create a story to explain the results, hence narrative. However I can see how using that term pejoratively could be annoying, especially if someone has an interest in literature.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The reason I use that term specifically is the tendency for MSM and some fans to create a story to explain the results, hence narrative.

Ok, but it seems to me that the problem here is not the creation of stories in and of itself, but rather that those stories too often fail to adequately or accurately fulfill their purpose: namely, to explain those particular results. The use of advanced statistics to explain results is itself the act of creating a story, and that is a good thing!

However I can see how using that term pejoratively could be annoying, especially if someone has an interest in literature.

Yeah, that pretty much describes me, actually! I do find the dismissive use of “narrative” irritating, and it’s a drum I intend to keep beating! :)

Thank you for your reply, and don’t get me wrong – I do enjoy reading the articles here very much!

by Chunklets on Nov 14, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey not a problem! I totally understand where you’re coming from. I think you have a fair point as well, I’ll see if I can remember to use other words to show what I mean in the future.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Not a problem! Thanks for reading and stopping by.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

My timeonice stat for the day. Habs are +6 (30-24) so far at even strength, which exactly coincides with the results of PK. Subban (15-9) and Max Pacioretty (13-7). Best +/- is Gorges with +10 (17-7) who has both excellent underlying stats and percentages while worst is Gill with -5 (5-10) with average underlying (~50%) but poor percentages.

by Stephan Cooper on Nov 14, 2011 1:04 PM EST reply actions  

2007 draft, amazing.

That really seems to support our assertion that Gill is playing above his talent level at ES.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Conversely, the Rivet return: amazing.

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by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

The trade that keeps on giving. If we’d somehow kept McDonagh, that 2007 draft may have been the best I’ve seen in my lifetime by the Habs. It might still be, considering they ended up with Eller as well.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

We might be able to add Palushaj’s name to that list as well if we’re adding Eller.

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by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed. I was actually surprised with the link Chris posted how good Palushaj’s possession numbers are. It’s a small sample to be sure, but that looks solid. And he’s been noticeably good on Eller’s line the last 2 games.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Unlikely any draft matches the 1984 draft

Svoboda, Richer, Corson, Roy (Troy Crosby in the last round).

That draft solidified both Cups.

Richer traded for Muller. Corson traded for Damphousse.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes I know you weren’t born yet :)

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha indeed, I’m a 1987er.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Savard lived off that draft for a decade. Let’s hope we get to see the Habs do the same thing with the 2007 Draft.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Or even better, repeat the 2007 draft. I think this summer’s draft could end up being similar in the number of quality NHL players. They’re all defensemen but that’s okay.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Too bad Fortier’s been held back due to injuries, he always projected well as a bottom six guy.

And don’t look now, but even Scott Kishel is having a pretty good senior year at UMD. I mean, he sucked until now and is a lot older than anyone else, but hey…

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by Bruce Peter on Nov 14, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You never know. I still think our prospect pool is vastly underrated. I think we lose a ton of ground in rankings because the team could not care less about drafting a goalie. I’m confident that if assembled in a top 25 under 25 list like we did this summer, the Habs would be among the top in the NHL.

We don’t have the big name stars, but we have more depth than most.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

A franchise is usually graded by superstar talent in the pipeline, but if you have young stars in the NHL, what you need is a constant stream of replacement players that have low cap hits.

Having one Rick Nash is great, but the Jackets have sucked for a decade because they don’t surround him with depth.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

They finally tried this summer, but it’s not working so well. They’re also far too married to Steve Mason. Not to mention they’re horrible at drafting and retaining prospects. I can’t imagine Habs fans dealing with a management team like Columbus has. They think PG is bad?

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

to play devil’s advocate, though, depth ought to be the easiest thing for a gm to find cheap on the open market. the valuation for 3rd/4th line talent in hockey is not nearly so rational as the market for top-tier players- hell, there’s probably guys not even playing in the nhl who could be terrific support pieces in a low-minutes role.

a lack of cheap depth in the pipeline is something that might be fixed by relatively easy low-drama trades, cheap ufa pickups, or a bit of digging around in the ahl/khl. on the other hand, if you don’t get top-level talent on an elc/rfa deal, you pretty much have to overpay to get it at all. so it’s probably fair to give higher grades to prospect pools with more potential superstar talent- they’re gonna be using those cap dollars way more efficiently than a team with a pipeline full of serviceable depth players.

by ephie on Nov 14, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

You have made the assumption that I am saying depth players, I said young replacement players. Leblanc, Eller, Kristo all have the potential to develop into top line forwards not 3rd or 4th liners. I also said if you have potential young superstar talent in the NHL which the Habs do with Price, Subban and Max Pac.

If you had gone back to 2004 and judged prospect depth, you could have looked at Stephen Weiss or Svitov and assumed that they would be better players than Tomas Plekanec.

Montreal had guys like Plekanec, Higgins, Grabovski, Chipchura, Emelin, Kostitsyn etc. All guys who were viewed as good players, but not superstar talent (even Kostitsyn was considered a raw talent).

All of those guys are solid NHL players with the majority of them playing top forward minutes for the majority of their careers.

A team like Florida drafted Weiss, Olesz, Horton, Bouwmeester etc. All guys who were considered elite star talent. They never provided any depth for those guys to succeed and they whiffed on some big picks.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, i misinterpreted your use of the term ‘replacement’ as meaning not ‘replacement for stars currently on the team but ’replacement-level players’- i.e. dudes who can come into the nhl and be useful, and combining that with the above comment about how we don’t have big names, but we have depth… well, i hope you’d understand how it could open itself to a misreading.

although i still think you’re stretching if you’re saying emelin and chipchura constitute ‘solid nhl players who’ve played top forward minutes the majority of their careers’. maybe someday, but that hasn’t been demonstrated yet. and higgins is an interesting case: i’d argue that he’s an example of a player the canadiens oversold and mismanaged, to both his and our detriment. just because we played the man like a top-six forward don’t make it true.

bottom line, i think the habs have a pretty good track record of drafting nhl-capable players considering their position in the draft rotation, but i don’t think they’re doing much better than average in terms of getting value out of their picks. better than florida and columbus? sure, but better than the worst is not the same as one of the best.

by ephie on Nov 15, 2011 2:52 AM EST up reply actions  

The graph on PDO is very nice.

Timeonice’s an essential tool, but watch out with the individual stat lines, they only take their full meaning with competition and zone starts taken into account. Palushaj is beatinh up the opposition, but he plays the dregs and starts an awful lot in the OZone.

As Subban showed us last year, that’s not necessarily a bad sign. A player who destroys 4th lines is a 3rd liner, et ainsi de suite.

by Olivier on Nov 14, 2011 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

An excellent point. Everything needs a context!

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you call a player that destroys first lines?

by MathMan on Nov 14, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice.

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice article. Thanks for this

by khaleeji on Nov 14, 2011 3:09 PM EST reply actions  

No problem, thanks for the comment!

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by Andrew Berkshire on Nov 14, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

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