The Quiet Room
by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 2:36 PM EDT
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PrintIt's not often that you'll see a story on Eyes on the Prize that isn't about the Canadiens, but I felt compelled to say something today.
With news today that James Reimer had a setback with his "whiplash" caused by incidental contact with Brian Gionta last Saturday, questions are arising about whether or not he has a concussion. The speculation ramped up after Jonas Gustavsson called Reimer's injury a concussion when he spoke to the media about starting against the Rangers tonight. Maple Leafs coach Ron Wilson quickly dismissed Gustavsson's words saying that he's not a doctor, but how likely is it that Gustavsson isn't diagnosing, but repeating what has been admitted behind closed doors?
This isn't the first time that the Leafs haven't admitted a player had a concussion, it happened with Mikhail Grabovski last year against the Bruins, and he finished that game off with the game winning goal instead of sitting out, as it seems so often happens with concussions.
Now I'm not indicting the Leafs specifically for this, I think every team in the NHL has been guilty of this on more than one occasion in recent years, and part of the fault is on the players not relaying that they're hurt. However the NHL instituted a rule last year specifically to take the player's judgement out of the equation; requiring a player who was subjected to a hit to the head to spend time in a "quiet room" and be tested for concussion symptoms right after the contact in order to successfully diagnose concussions before there's another Crosby situation.
When Reimer was first hit, he looked hurt, there's no question about it, but he finished the period anyway. Moments later he was run again by Travis Moen and his head banged off the crossbar as Moen tucked in a goal. Any chance a second hit to the head in sequence is why Reimer is having trouble now? Common knowledge on concussions would suggest yes.
The Leafs organization is clearly taking this seriously now, but they didn't right away. That is an NHL philosophy that needs to change. Unless the NHL enforces the quiet room practice with authority however, it will never change, especially come playoff time.
In case anyone thinks I'm being a homer here, and taking a chance to bash Wilson and the Leafs, the Habs are guilty of it too. Last year in the playoffs Jeff Halpern received a head shot from Andrew Ference in game 7 that went uncalled by the refs, but Halpern was clearly messed up. He didn't go to the quiet room, and his play in overtime and poor positioning (something Halpern is usually fantastic at) in large part caused the series winning goal for Boston.
Would the Canadiens have thrown Halpern back on the ice so quickly if the result would be a huge fine to the coaching staff and the team? I don't think so. I believe team fines in this situation need to be explored.
Players are becoming aware of the dangers of concussions. The anonymous current NHL player who wrote a blog for Puck Daddy today shows that they're paying attention, as he relayed the story of Dave Scatchard being unable to perform simple tasks with his children because of post-concussion symptoms.
The NHL views players as commodities, not people, and this is especially true of the way NHL owners treat players. Perhaps the responsibility for pushing this idea should be on the NHLPA. The NHL has made huge strides in putting the onus on players for concussions, how about some responsibility for their employers as well?
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From the outside something seems amiss with the Leafs whiplash report, but it is all speculation and I am not going to accuse them of lying.
To be clear, I’m not accusing them of lying. All they’re doing is the same thing every team does with upper and lower body injuries. They’re being vague on purpose. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the institutionalized “you’re tough if you keep playing” thing when it comes to head injuries. How celebrated was Kariya when he came back from the Stevens hit and scored in OT? Unfortunately in the long term is probably cost 5 productive years of his career. Teams have little to no regard for the quality of life of their players.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Does playing afterwards really lead to the long term effects? I think it just means you’re more at risk for an even more severe incident, much like Crosby after Hedman hit his head into the glass.
And of course Richard’s famous ‘blackout’ GWG vs. Boston is celebrated folklore in our team’s history.
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It’s the risk in playing afterwards that I’m worried about. Any little bump can be really bad. The Hedman hit on Crosby for example, happens all the time. Most cases that’s just a little head bump off the glass and the player is none the worse for wear.
And yeah the Richard one is a classic example. It makes for a great story for the media but really it’s just being irresponsible.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Not saying you are accusing them of lying. Just that it looks like a concussion, but with the limited info I have I am not going to make a definitive statement.
For sure. Just wanted to clarify.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The biggest problem is that 1. the diagnosis is still dependent on the player’s cooperation and 2. concussion symptoms can take a couple of days to manifest.
Definitely a bad break and possibly suspicious but not necessarily so.
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I think they really need to take player’s opinions or cooperation out of it. That was the purpose of the quiet room rule, no?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he had a concussion immediately while watching the game. When he didn’t come back for the second period I believed it even more.
Everytime I have suffered from a whiplash effect, it wasn’t an immediate pain or soreness. The fact that they removed him from that game after the first set off alarm bells for me.
My first thought was also concussion, and when he banged his head off the crossbar on Moen’s shorty I was thinking, “oh crap, Crosby all over again”. Hopefully it’s minor and the Leafs are just being careful now.
My first thought with Halpern last year was concussion as well. I didn’t understand why he didn’t really miss a shift, he was dazed and confused the rest of the game. I’m not sure if Spacek went to the quiet room after Lucic’s hit from behind either.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The Halpern hit came to mind for me, I still can’t believe he was allowed to play without even a cursory check. Grabovski scoring for the Leafs last year after Chara drove his head into the glass also comes to mind.
It’s too early to tell if the incentives for head-hunting have changed with Shanahan in charge of discipline. Last year it was certainly a good idea to go after the other guy’s head. Worst case scenario for the offending player is the other guy is slightly less effective and you get a ride on the Wheel of Justice. Best case you knock a guy out/into the quiet room and nothing happened.
The way the quiet room thing was implemented last year was stupid. If it was actually enforced it just gave players a greater incentive to give others head injuries. As it turned out, the whole room thing was just lip service.
For sure. It would never have worked under Campbell’s suspension policy.
Halpern not taking a seat last year was extremely disappointing to me because I really wanted to believe Montreal would try to lead the way on concussion treatment after the Pacioretty incident, but it didn’t work out that way.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I imagine its really hard to be avant garde when your in the playoffs. Not that it excuses but it does explain.
by Stephan Cooper on Oct 27, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
For sure.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Whiplash will usually result in an injury to the brain. The soft tissue (brain) rests in a solid container (skull). When “whiplash” occurs the brain frequently ricochets off of the back then front of the skull causing injury. You do not require direct force to the skull to cause a brain injury.
The problem is the rules aren’t being followed by multiple teams. Getting your “bell rung” used to be a “shake it off” or “toughen up” moment, we now know it is a concussion. It was apparent something happened to Reimer, all teams should err on the side of caution.
by blockersave93 on Oct 27, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It is amazing that teams used to just say “deal with it” and send them back out. I wonder if there are any players who suffered from strange career drops offs that seemed unexplained twenty years ago, but would make sense today.
More than we could stomach I’m sure. Research is showing that concussions in the teenage years become problematic far sooner than we originally though. Severe mental health disorders have been linked to concussions suffered by athletes prior to high school years. Knowing that concussions are additive, how many junior (or younger) players suffered concussions and their play then suffered never allowing them to reach their potential?
Scary thing is, in practice medical providers have no universal scale or tool for assessing concussions. This is being developed now and on the fly.
by blockersave93 on Oct 27, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Eric Lindros has been vilified for a decade now for being a “pussy”. I wonder how many people would take that back considering all the new information.
I forget who it was, but a writer this summer proposed that fans in Philly owed Lindros an apology for treatment he received after multiple concussions, and the response wasn’t exactly nice. When I said I agreed with the article, a couple people responded that Lindros was just a soft player and a wuss. Ridiculous. Lindros was basically Ovechkin but stronger, and less fortunate on the injury front.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Lindros was Ovechkin dropped into a league without guys like Pronger in it. He was essentially the same size as Ovechkin, but a guy that big with the speed and skill was unheard of at the time.
Lindros has been unfairly maligned because of how he entered the league and that lead to the narrative that painted him as a wuss. Think about it, he questioned the motives of his team in sending him out before he was healthy and consulted his own doctors and was considered disloyal.
His legacy has been left in tatters, it will be interesting if somebody chooses to re-write his tale as somebody who pushed the boundaries of control a player has over his career and the unfortunate demise of his career because of the lack of understanding in regards to concussions.
If you only got to see Lindros from 1999-2007 your view of his impact is minimal. Watching him at 18 in the Canada Cup destroy adults and compete at the same level as the best players in the game has been forgotten.
If a guy like Bernie Federko is in the Hall, I don’t know how a guy like Lindros should be out.
Think about it, he questioned the motives of his team in sending him out before he was healthy and consulted his own doctors and was considered disloyal.
That is exactly the BS that the NHL needs to get rid of. How many players did the Flyers rush back during that time? Lindros, Primeau, Rathje, Hatcher and more all had their careers hampered or cut short because team doctors were incompetent or the organization forced them back. Lindros should be remembered as you suggest, someone who pushed the boundaries. If he was a player today, I think that’s how he would be remembered, and people would listen.
I really thought Lindros would have a second career in the NHLPA, I’m disappointed that he’s no longer there.
What I remember about watching him in the early to mid-90’s was that he was just completely unstoppable. Kind of like Ovechkin seemed in his 65 goal season. He would either skate around or through teams with ease.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He may still have his career re-written, it will take a brilliant documentary or author to pull it off though. People hated him because of the Nordiques thing and it made it easy for them to side with Bobby Clarke because they already disliked him.
He is an interesting guy. He is hated for things that are admirable if you place your self in his shoes.
• An 18 year old who was listening to his parents advice and not that of an organization or agent who have their own best interest in mind?
• A guy refusing to play for a team that had been awful and was about to be thrown into a language/culture debate that resulted in a seperation referendum?
• A guy who almost died from a punctured lung that was misdiagnosed by his team questioning his teams competency and motive?
• A guy who already didn’t trust his team, suffering from multiple brain traumas seeking secondary advice from a secondary source?
The nerve of that guy!! What a jerk!
When you put it that way...
He sounds like a super douche!
I’m actually surprising that Nordiques fans still hold a grudge. I doubt he would have saved their franchise and Forsberg ended up having an even better career.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
On second thought, a great career for Forsberg on the Avalanche isn’t exactly something Quebec fans would care about.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I care plenty about it, believe me. My Lindros grudge went away with the 104 points season. Foppa was icing on the cake. Colorado’s run in the 90’s and 00’s was way more annoying to me.
I still heartily dislike them, actually. That their fan base is tone-deaf to advanced stats is a source of great comfort to me.
As for Chris points, I agree with all but one of them. It was my understanding that, once the kid said he wouldn’t play for the Nords, people from both side of the fence decided they’d try and make the thing if only partly about politics. But my understanding was that, at it’s core, Lindros’s point was that he didn’t feel playing for a looser franchise who essentially made a purpose of sucking so they could draft him.
Imagine Nugent-Hopkins acting that way… heh.
I actually started following the Avalanche after the Roy trade and ignored the Habs until around 2000. That was the most bitter I’ve ever been about anything Habs related.
Forsberg was my favourite player outside of Lemieux as a kid, especially in the playoffs. Loved watching him play.
Sometimes I forget you’re a Nordiques fan, even with it blatantly in your website’s name. Are we going to lose you when Quebec gets another franchise, Olivier?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
If the city of Quebec and the province are stupid enough to build an arena for them it will happen eventually. There are too many franchises not thriving for it not to happen. It may take a few years of the NHL using Quebec as leverage to get more subsidies out of existing cities before a team is finally moved.
I don’t know why I didn’t just say “Quebec City”. Guess I’ve been following the Edmonton arena thing too closely
Well, the provincial government is pretty heavily into this (45% of the overall costs) so…
That being said, the US economy will bounce back and I still think it makes more sense for the NHL to go in Seattle.
But, that’s just me.
Speaking as a guy who loved the Expos, I never followed them to Washington (because I was a Yankee fan + Expos fan, my perspective isn’t pure) and have no interest in the Nationals, but if a team returned and called themselves the Expos, I would be all in.
I’ve always rationalized that you’re allowed a favourite AL and NL team. I don’t know if it is right, but I guess I always knew growing up that if it came down to it, I’d choose the Expos in the World Series. And yes, I grew up a lame all-Canadian MLB fan. Although in my adult life I became partial to the Twins because they were lumped in with the Expos in 2002 as potential contraction teams.
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The fact that the NHL has never had a team in Seattle is absolutely mindboggling. Surely the NHL executives have noticed that it’s a major US TV Market that has its name on the Stanley Cup already!
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Yes but isn’t Atlanta one of the largest US TV markets? Is there even interest in Seattle?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Generally it’s more profitable for the NHL to put teams in places where they can get tax dollars rather than where the support probably is.
Seattle didn’t let the NBA bully them into building a new arena for the team/league. I doubt the NHL could do so
I can understand that in theory, but half those teams end up losing millions every year instead of making them. Even if Winnipeg just pulls even they’re way better off than Atlanta for example.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Without knowing how they did in the first five or so years it’s hard to tell, but I personally think that the teams losing money has more to do with bad management than the market not working. The answer probably lies between the market and the management though.
North American sports fans aren’t conditioned to support teams with no chance of winning. The leagues aren’t set up for that. Toronto being an exception for the NHL, and somehow the post-2006 Oilers.
The Edmonton media are relentless boosters, that helps. Pretty much the inverse of in Montreal. They are able to either sell fans on the team being better than they are or all that sucking will be rewarded with exciting young players.
Plus there is a deep cultural memory of how close they were to loosing the team entirely.
by Stephan Cooper on Oct 27, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Edmonton
The other thing with Edmonton is that there’s just so much money in Northern Alberta. It’s why Edmonton can have more expensive tickets than winning teams like Montreal. So much expendable income in that area.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
For sure part of it is bad management. Phoenix for example built an arena in the worst possible place and started suffering instantly, and the arena deal was bad to begin with.
That said, interest in those markets ONLY picks up with cup wins and wanes instantly, even with a lot of success. Anaheim for example, had great attendance the year after their cup win, but now struggles again. Is there any doubt that a team as good as Anaheim would sell out in any major city in Canada?
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I’m just bitter about Winnipeg getting a team back. I said that a team in Winnipeg would never work unless the team got even more subsidies because the arena’s too small and there’s way too much currency risk what with the the US economy and dollar eventually getting stronger.
Of course, the team did get some VLT money earmarked to them upon their return so I wasn’t entirely wrong. It just looks that way.
I asked a guy with a Nords shirt on during the Avs game where his loyalty lied should a team return to Quebec. He emphatically stated he was an Avs fan regardless of a return of the Nordiques.
That has to be totally related to their post Nords success. I have yet to find a Jets fan who followed the Coyotes.
Or an Expos fan who follows the Nationals.
I have a friend who was a Nords fan and is now an Avs fan. He’s from Ontario originally, but from what I know of him, deep down he’s really a Nords fan and would ditch the Avs for a new Quebec team.
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Must be. Especially with the success being instantaneous.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I heard of his NHLPA tenure, he was always looking to pick a fight and had a snap temper. It seemed like he still was feeling the effects from PCS.
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That’s not surprising I guess. And he was also involved with the NHLPA in a time of intense turmoil, if I’m not mistaken.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He was ombudsman for a guy that was overthrown by the players in a coup.
Wouldn’t it be a worse indictment of him if he wasn’t trying to pick a fight at that time?
http://www.nesn.com/2009/08/kelly-firing-proves-nhlpa-will-never-learn.html
According to sources, part of this group’s desire to get rid of Kelly also stemmed from Kelly ordering an internal audit (by a top former FBI forensic accountant) of the players’ association’s expenses during the previous three years before he took over. That audit was still ongoing prior to Kelly’s dismissal. Sources claim that through the audit, Kelly discovered that then-interim leaders Penny and Lindros were spending millions of dollars of the union’s money. Lindros ended up resigning, but word is, that move fueled this attack on Kelly, and Lindros was very much involved. Kelly also beat out Pink for the executive director job, and the belief is that Pink is still sour over that.
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I have never heard a definitive report that wasn’t biased towards Kelly or the players who pulled off the coup, I have yet to see any damning evidence either way that was corroborated by named sources with any credibility. With that being the case, I have never really sided with either party on that issue.
I know. The union aired some dirty laundry in public, and judging from the fact that there was no legal case made against Lindros we can only presume innocence (perhaps incompetence, but no deliberate fraud like this article hints at).
A full history of Lindros would have to include this chapter, I’d think.
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I wonder if there are any players who suffered from strange career drops offs that seemed unexplained twenty years ago, but would make sense today.
i’ve been reading that new bio of eddie shore recently, and the man’s life takes on a whole new color given what we know now about concussions and cte. in his early career, there are accounts of him being knocked out cold repeatedly and going back to play, playing entire periods that he couldn’t even remember the next day, taking time off for nonspecific ‘exhaustion’ and ‘neuralgia’. fast forward twenty years and his various batshit antics coaching in springfield look like some pretty severe problems with emotional control and executive function, not just a ‘colorful personality’.
Sounds like it’s worth checking out. If you’re so inclined, you can always write a review of it as a fanpost here, I know we’d love to read it.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
McGuire on 990 right now
Is showing exactly why he could never be a GM of the Canadiens. As soon as an issue crops up concerning this team, all his experience goes out the window and he freaks out like Angry Sal.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 4:48 PM EDT reply actions
Exactly
Can you imagine the stupid moves he would pull if he were in charge of the Habs right now? I can’t even imagine.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Price would have been traded.
Subban would have been traded after he was a healthy scratch at the beginning of last year.
The Habs would have signed Jason Strudwick, Steve MacIntyre, Zach Stortini, and JF Jacques to form a 4th line and the #6 defenseman spot.
Pacioretty would have been dealt for some 3rd-line grinder before Pacioretty’s call-up last year.
Quality NHLers would be traded for the latest non-1st-round Canadian to star at the World Juniors.
Spacek would have been sent to the minors because McGuire would believe the Habs were better off without him and wouldn’t know that he was a 35+ contract.
One thing I’m absolutely sure about is that McGuire would have kept Halak. People can bash Gauthier all they like but that move took balls.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That move alone gained enough respect from me to ignore all the buffoons calling for his head right now.
Same here. I thought it was the most gutsy move a Habs GM has made in recent memory. Universally panned by media fools, and now looking like a great trade as Price is clearly the superior goaltender and Eller rounds into top 6 form.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, several of the criticisms were based on “he should’ve gotten more”, not “he should’ve kept Halak”.
Which I think shows a misunderstanding of goaltender trade values, but it’s a lot less knee-jerk.
It didn’t help, of course, that the notion that the Habs could’ve gotten Perron instead of Eller struck some of those people…
Do you think McGuire has the balls to have traded Halak in that situation? I’m 90% sure he’s stated that he would have kept Halak for another year if he couldn’t get a better deal, which would only diminish his value and stunt Price’s development.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
He completely missed the point that Halak wasn’t likely to ever have more value than he had at that precise moment.
Which ties to the idea that there was a return out there for Halak that there wasn’t and how much more value a guy about to break into the NHL had to Montreal than someone already established.
Probably from a misunderstanding of how variability works in goaltending.
by Stephan Cooper on Oct 27, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
For sure. The things people expected for a return on Halak was absurd. I heard Giroux’s name tossed around like it was a real possibility, not a chance.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The funnier ones were those that thought they could get Backes. Of course that was somewhat tied to a limited understanding of how good Backes is.
by Stephan Cooper on Oct 27, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
And a limited understanding of the sample size of Halak’s dominance. And that there was zero market for goalies that summer.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny how you can’t have a concussion discussion without Lindros coming up.
Apparently we can have one with little mention of Crosby though :)
Crosby came up on HIO. I figured someone would bring it up eventually.
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by Andrew Berkshire on Oct 27, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t have and end to the Crosby story yet so we can’t yet fully evaluate it. Lindros’s career is purely academic at this point.
The one I mourn for more is Kariya though. No one played the game in as much as it was meant to be played as he did but he had the misfortune to play in a clutch and grab era where headhunting was tolerated. Of Cherry’s many outrages this season the one that sticks out for me is glorifying Stevens’ hit on him.
by Stephan Cooper on Oct 27, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
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