Habs' Strongest Position of Depth Now Its Weakest
by Robert L on Aug 17, 2010 3:30 AM EDT
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Canadiens GM Pierre Gauthier yesterday, dealt Hamilton goaltender Cedrick Desjardins to Tampa for Finnish stopper Karri Ramo, who is committed to the KHL for another season. I've now lost count of how many former Canadiens players, prospects and management now don the lightning bolt, but rumours of Steve Yzerman and Guy Boucher secretly meeting over lunch with Youppi! in a Tampa restaurant ought to be lighting up the Hockey Buzz message boards by the time you read this. No, I mean really, this is bordering on ridiculous here. Is there some kind of collective erection in Tamba for Habs components? What gives? It makes a fan think an organization might reconsider allowing another to hire away minor coaches and assistant GM's under contract, for fear it will return to pluck its dividends one by one.
Why not trade the entire Canadiens team to Tampa for the Lightning's complete roster and get all this over with?
But that is beside the besides. When what is essentially a minor near deal causes such rumbles, the general consensus is that the trade confounds.
And this deal by riddler Gauthier makes little sense in the short term, and provides no clues into the future.
I fail to follow the logic of acquiring a player (in this case, simply his rights) who cannot perform for the organization immediately in some capacity somewhere on the depth chart beginning now.
Speaking of depth charts, last season Montreal goalie ranks included Jaroslav Halak, Carey Price, Curtis Sanford and Cedrick Desjardins - earning raves with the Bulldogs - with Robert Mayer somewhere next in line.
It now boasts, and that term is used loosly, Carey Price, who is not under contract, followed by three NHL vagabonds in Alex Auld, Sanford and now Ramo, while Mayer's challenge remains at the AHL level.
Now anyway it is sliced, no matter where fans sit on the great Price / Halak debate of last season, there is no denying that the Habs backbone in 2009-10 was their goaltending. They were the bucketmen of a sinking boat, bailing with both hands to keep the club afloat. For this coming season, it is to be hoped no leaks develop in the good ship, because what were then buckets are now achors and anvils.
Further wrapping the conundrum in a puzzler is the fact that Carey Price remains unsigned at the moment. That will change, and yesterday's trade, will not affect how he begins next season.
Now I like Carey Price, and I have not stopped believing he is the real deal, but the kid's got some weighty proving to do. His skeptic's anxieties are well known, let's just say. As time passes, I am beginning to see the old Jesus Price noose of a moniker in a different light, as it's likely been since the son of Mary and Joseph parted the seas, that any one group of people have placed so much faith in one person for their hopes.
Still, He walked on water and they crucified him too!
Price might be the least of present tense concerns in the bigger picture, and the rammifications are aplenty, looming somewhere down the line.
In Montreal, where nothing creates controversy and fear more than goaltender questions, the unanswered list is long and getting longer.
Should Price play up to his potential this coming season, but then get hurt, does the thin depth in goal not place a certain pressure to rush him back?
That could happen, and that's everyone's main worry now. It likely was before this trade, either way.
Can Alex Auld ably spell Price every fourth game in normal rotation, or even take the reigns during a prolonged injury?
I'm afraid of this answer!
When's the last time Sanford had a good sniff of NHL competiton? Would he be ready in a panic?
It's been awhile, but he did get a taste of AHL final four competition. I know, it doesn't make you feel any better either.
Was this trade a simple upgrade of player skill in a one for one deal, with a one year time lapse, and does Ramo have any interest in playing in the NHL?
It could be just that, only there is a likelyhood we never find out. If it pans out, kudos to Gauthier's smarts, but I don't like the risk.
Why would Ramo reconsider the NHL again if it doesn't offer him more properity than the KHL at this point? If couldn't crack Tampa in thin times, how does he remotely consider Montreal?
Maybe he loves strip clubs, but other than that, I don't see any Montreal allure for him.
Could it be that this trade was done to accentuate the progress and development of Robert Mayer?
It will do that regardless, but Mayer was not even the number one with ECHL Cincinnati last season.
Where is the next promising Canadiens goaltending propspect, just waiting for a chance to show his stuff at the NHL level?
Good question. No one has the answer.
Who pushes Price?
Carey himself, hopefully.
Is the loss of Cedrick Desjardins potentially franchise crippling.
Hardly at all, but the ranking in a position's depth should never be compromised, especially after the strongest performer has been traded away.
Karri Ramo is one year away, at least, from helping the Canadiens in any way. By the time he arrives - if he does - the most urgent need for him might have passed.
More reads on this...What do I know?
Ya! The Habs Rule! - Habs give Price a birthday gift, trade closest rival
The Daily Hab-it - Beyond Comprehension
A Winning Habit - Habs and Tampa Swap Goalies
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Maybe if they give Price complete control of the Goaltending position they can show him they really want him back in Montreal. Could this possibly make Price accept less money on his new deal? Probably not, but it might be along Gauthier’s line of thinking.
I have liked Ramo since he played for a terrible team in Tampa. His improvement in the KHL is encouraging. The same crap that is spewed about Price, (he’s going to continue to mature, keepers mature later, he has already played so many games in the NHL etc.) are there for Ramo. He could be a decent insurance policy for next year if Price falters this year.
Oh gimme a break! Ramo hasn’t been subjected to a single thing Price has endured in Montreal. There’s no comparison to be made.
That Ramos’ KHL numbers looks better doesn’t necessarily qualify as improvement.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think they play defense in the KHL. So if his numbers are better then they are, in fact, better.
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by red army line on Aug 19, 2010 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I still don’t get why trading the team’s fourth-string goaltender is made to be such a big deal.
Let me get this straight. The Habs trade an undrafted AHL goalie who has to be subjected to waivers but they have no room for in the NHL for a guy with actual NHL experience who won’t be subject to the same issue and, despite the fact that the most likely outcome is that neither guy ever plays in the NHL in the future, this is front-page news? With many scandalized, incredulous reactions on blogs and Twitter…
Only in Montreal….
Desjardins was never a “threat” to Price, and if there was danger, it was only because he’s a francophone and that automatically makes him several notches better with the local media. Seriously, if Desjardins is European rather than French-Canadian, this doesn’t even rate a blip on the radar. But he’s a “local”, even if he’s from NB, so a fuss is raised.
This has no impact on NHL organizational depth. Heck, arguably, it improves it; if anything Ramo’s more likely to play in the NHL in the future than Desjardins is, which would seem to improve it.
This is a nothing move.
I disagree. I think Desjardins was good enough to be groomed as a potential longer term NHL backup in Montreal. I am / would have been, more comfortable with him getting a shot. For me at least, the francophone angle doesn’t even play in. As I see it, it impacts the current depth chart, as I had him ahead of Sanford.
I don’t think he was ahead of Sanford, but in any case the difference was so small as to be immaterial.
In a market where “average” goaltending is cheap and plentiful, stockpiling low-end goaltenders doesn’t seem like a very useful strategy. Maybe it’s just me, but I just don’t see the need to “groom a backup”. They’re dime a dozen.
There are cheap (and getting cheaper), but finding one with the head set for Montreal is a better option than a revolving door or retreads. I think that if the Habs are to have a very identified number one, that it is smart to have a backup in a long term role that understands his expectations.
It’s a backup goalie. I don’t think that requires any particular “head set” and I think there’s nothing wrong with rotating backups. I think that notion of “head set for Montreal” is completely overblown TBH. And I don’t think Desjardins would have stayed more than 1-2 more years with the Habs in any case.
True, but look at the good that Jaro did as a three season “backup”? He had the headset, and we saw the benefit. Who of us three years ago would have predicted that Halak, a ninth rounder, would be turned over for a first rounder three seasons later.
Halak didn’t make an impact because he had the headset. He made an impact because he has talent — NHL-starter talent. That’s the crucial difference between Desjardins and Halak — unless you think Desjardins is a potential NHL starter, but I doubt that.
by MathMan on Aug 17, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The talent is a given, but you don’t achieve what he did without the common sense and wherewithal to deal with everything Montreal that Halak has.
The guy patiently understood where he stood every step of the way, said little along the way but the right, was poised to make the best of every opportunity, never got discouraged, was an exempliary supporting teammate and team citizen, and consistently worked to better himself.
If that’s not the right headset, I don’t know what is.
And by many accounts, it is what the talented Price has lacked at certain points.
Having a goalie with the right headset benefits the entire team. Having a guy on a one year deal knowing he’s good as gone is a roulette of circumstance.
To reiterate, I think this idea of “right headset” is patently overblown. Halak didn’t actually do anything except tend goal when it was asked of him — he did so very well, which is admirable, but let’s not pretend he’s got some sort of rare and exceptional character that would preclude someone else with similar talent and development from succeeding.
Likewise I think Price’s “troubles” in this area have been highly overblown. He doesn’t have any problems that don’t stem from being ridiculously young for a NHL goalie. A young goalie with real problems looks more like Steve Mason than Carey Price, but then maybe Steve Mason doesn’t have the right headset for Columbus. ;)
I don’t think a one-year backup is going to cause trouble or not try to be a good teammate. For a backup goalie, “being a good teammate” is one of the things that is going to get him his next contract, whether it be with the same or a different organization.
You must think living in the Montreal existence is overblown as well!
What Steve Mason didn’t have, is Hitchcock’s retrictive system helping him out.
I find it hard to believe that Carey Price in all his years of playing hockey would never have found himself under pressure and scrutiny before coming to Montreal.
I don’t think Halak’s mindset is exceptional by any means, but I think Price’s is the one that is different.
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by red army line on Aug 19, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
Nobody seems to mention that in 2009 that Desjardins stat line was equal to Marc Denis
2009 GAA W L T SVS SV% SO
Marc Denis 2.46 27 18 0 1254 0.92 5
Cedrick Desjardins 2.55 16 12 0 824 0.919 4
and in 2010 Curtis Sanford
2010 GAA W L T SVS SV% SO
Curtis Sanford 2.13 23 11 3 856 0.916 4
Cedrick Desjardins 2.00 29 9 4 981 0.919 6
So Desjardins struggled to outdistance what most Canadiens fans would describe as career scrubs over the last two seasons. This is the danger of judging a goaltender based on statistics. The Bulldogs system obviously was a strong defensive system that pumped up goaltending statistics.
This is not about Price. With the way that goaltending has evolved over the last 15 years, they are there to get you over the top. A great goaltender makes a terrible team respectable. A great goaltender makes a respectable team a playoff contender. A great goaltender makes a playoff contender a playoff team and a great goaltender makes a playoff team a Stanley Cup contender.
So if the Habs are a strong team, then Auld or Sanford will be able to bridge the gap until his return. If they are a weak team, then Desjardins was not going to be able to change anything.
People also fail to mention that Desjardins lost his starting job to the “inferior” Sanford in the playoffs. They also fail to mention that his SV% dropped from .931 over his first 22 games to .903 over his last 20+ games.
This deal will have ZERO impact on the Canadiens this season.
by Chris Boyle on Aug 17, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
This deal will have ZERO impact on the Canadiens this season.
Barring potential injuries or a Carey collapse of course.
I think it’s a trade that could have been made during the season, or a it’s term.
Even if Price gets injured I don’t think Desjardins is an upgrade on Auld and is about as good as Sanford.
by Chris Boyle on Aug 17, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
An upgrade is hard to call, but I saw it as a goalie making his first steps in Montreal with an eye on the future as opposed to one vagabond just playing out the role.
I can’t put Desjardins on the level with a goaltender who has been an NHL player since he was 24 when Desjardins hasn’t started an NHL game at the age of 25.
Desjardins is supposed to be entering his peak years as an NHL goaltender and he hasn’t made the league yet. He also was not able to produce better numbers than Denis and Sanford over the last two seasons.
It doesn’t mean I think highly of Auld, I just don’t think highly of Desjardins.
by Chris Boyle on Aug 17, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s like I mentioned below, I think that it is as deceiving to go by age expectations as it is to look at flat stats. Some goalies just bloom later than the average and each goalie is almost a case unto themselves.
I won’t get into a discussion where stats are used to that fatten him in one way and thin him out in another. There are stereotypes and then there are exceptions to the rules, and from what I’ve seen of Desjardins (no more than a handfull of games, mind you) he looked to be an interesting prospect and a good goalie.
The Canadiens are likely placed better to judge him, but I would have liked to see him get a shot.
I am not looking at flat stats. From what I have seen of Desjardins he doesn’t rank at an elite level at anything he does. His lateral movement, positioning, footwork are fairly average. His reflexes looked pretty good, but reflexes are no longer the most important aspect of goaltending even though most fans are still impressed by athletic goaltenders.
When judging a goaltender you need to take into account what you see and pair it with his results. Any result taken out of context can give you a poor representation of what a goaltender’s ability is.
Bias becomes the greatest blinder when scouting an individual player. I am willing to bet if I took the jersey and mask of Desjardins and swapped them with Sanford that 95% of the fanbase would not know the difference and would favour the guy wearing the Desjardins jersey and mask. They have already made up their mind based on age, surname and name recognition from him having played in two Memorial Cups. Thus begins the exercise in praising flaws and ignoring faults.
Since goaltenders have had the style beaten out of them and have been raised to clone the movements of a butterfly goaltender the majority of them are interchangeable.
The majority of AHL goaltenders are one Leighton/Thomas opportunity away from being an NHL regular. Their career essentially linked to the defensive strength of the franchise they are playing for.
Auld, Sanford, LaBarbera, Leighton, Quick, Nittymakki etc are all interchangeable. Late bloomer or not, I just don’t see Desjardins rising above this level and hence am not really concerned with where he ends up.
What it seems to me that Gauthier is doing is crippling the fanbase in their future attempts to undermine Carey Price.
I think you’re making out Desjardins to be more than he was (a .919 SV% at age 24 in the AHL, the backup to Sanford). Though you’re right, there is less insurance policy for this year. But I think if we were down to Desjardins, we’d be trading for a goalie anyways.
I don’t know what to expect necessarily of Ramo, but he’s always been considered a stronger prospect than Cedric, and is still a year younger than him. On pure ability and talent, he’s better. But yeah, I don’t know if he’ll want to come back to the NHL or not. Omsk can probably give him a decent raise if they want to.
Ramo was thrown to the wolves way too early in Tampa… he was up because of an injury situation and was too raw. It definitely set him back.
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I think the age of goaltenders is vastly overated. Each goalie is a case unto themselves. There are stereotypes and exceptions to the rules, and Desjardins looked to be the latter.
No doubt that Ramo has the better potential in a comparison, but he’s a non NHL entity this season. Goalie who can be KHL starters with the money that goes with it, will not opt to become NHL also-rans at a cheaper price.
Maybe a question that has been missed in all of this is that perhaps Ramo is an insurance policy should Price completely blow chunks next season. In that event, he then becomes an option and this become perhaps a very shrewd move by Gauthier, with a year’s hindsight.
You do realize you’re betting on an exception?
Alright then.
Ramo at least has shown he can play in the NHL.
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want humor, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
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by red army line on Aug 19, 2010 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions
When are they....
When are they(Gauthier\Gainey) planning on signing Price anyway? All these other goalie moves and they still haven’t cemented anything yet with the presumed “number one guy”… What exactly are they waiting for? Just curious…
by Montcalm's Revenge on Aug 17, 2010 11:12 AM EDT reply actions
The emphasis isn’t on Gauthier to sign him. The offers have been made and presented. It’s up to Carey to sign. This is the process of negotiation playing out. Gauthier could also have other irons in the fire. Who’s to say he isn’t dangling a player (Andrei K) at the moment, to free up cap space for a better offer to Price in addition to bringing in a prospect.
Isn’t speculation wonderful?
The Habs need Andrei K. He is frankly a lot more useful than Benoit Brunet would have you believe. In any case, the Habs are already short one top-six forward, can’t afford to lose another, and aren’t likely to replace him effectively for cheaper.
If there’s a salary to be moved for cap relief it ideally would be Hamrlik’s… don’t get me wrong, he’s an important and highly useful player, but Subban just might give the Habs enough leeway on D to move those dollars towards forward. Of course, moving Hamrlik is tricky business.
I don’t think signing Price long-term at this point makes much sense for anyone anyway. And if the Habs need to move salary to make room for Price right now, they’re paying him too much. They’re taking the very rational approach of getting quality goaltending for not much cap space, and they can’t undermine that.
On Andrei, I’m not suggesting….just speculating. He is needed, but for top six forwards I’ll go out on a crystal ball limb and predict Eller will be given a shot alongside Pleks and AK46. With the top 2 centers locked up long term, the Habs will given him a look there sooner or later.
Hamrlik, at this point, has a limited NMC, otherwise he’s already be history.
Price, I think, is a two year proposition for now, but that puts him right into UFA status in the summer 2012-13. It’s a delicate case.
2012-13?
I thought Price has 4 more RFA years
by Chris Boyle on Aug 17, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Well now maybe I’m not so sure. I thought it was established that he’s an RFA for one more, then a UFA after that. He signed at 19, did he not? And that Calder season did not go against his ELC.
If he has four more, that’s a whole different scenario.
My understanding is 27 or 7 NHL seasons. I don’t think it matter when you sign your pro contract but the amount of games that determines eligibility.
Price is entering his 4th season leaving 3 more after this season. He will be arbitration eligible next season.
by Chris Boyle on Aug 17, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
27/7 is correct. Price has 3 NHL seasons, so that gives him 4 more years (presuming he spends them all in the NHL, which certainly seems likely ;) ).
Yep. That means Price is a UFA when he is 26, but starts his first year of post-UFA life as a 27 year old.
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Eller’s just not going to be an effective top-six NHL forward in the very short term. Heck, even Pouliot is borderline, ideally he’d be Eller’s LW on a pretty good third line and the Habs would add another tough-minutes winger to play with Gomez or Plekanec.
It would be nice to allow Eller and Pouliot a chance to dominate a 3rd line setting before thrusting them into a role they cannot handle.
Hopefully they can fill a top 6 hole from elsewhere and have the patience to do just that.
by Chris Boyle on Aug 17, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s where Sergei Kostitsyn was supposed to help…
Anyone of interest?
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In a hockey sense, trading Sergei K for a goalie the Habs couldn’t afford and an upcoming UFA may not have been the best idea in the world…
In the meantime...
Our centre depth, long the bane of the organziation, is getting considerably stronger. We’ve got 3 1/2 legit NHLers (1/2 is Lapierre, who is probably now a winger), two legit top 2 line centres locked up long term, two higher end prospects in Eller and Leblanc under contract, and a large collection of middle tier prospects which could emerge as NHLers (Maxwell, Desharnais, Nattinen, etc.). It isn’t quite at a “strong” position yet, but it’s become one of our strongest positions.
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What I’m unsure about is why you’d lock up two top-6 centers long term and trade for a top-6 center in waiting, almost ready to make the NHL.
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want humor, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 19, 2010 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair question. Eller could easily be better than one of those within a few years. I don’t think being on the 3rd line getting soft minutes is a bad plan to ease him into the NHL, though. Gomez has 4 years left… is Eller going to be better than him by then? Possibly, but then you just have 3 good centres and Gomez or Plekanec moves into a stricter checking role. Or you trade one of them. This isn’t a bad problem to have. Having 3 good centres is certainly a lot more valuable to a team than 2 good goalies.
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by Bruce Peter on Aug 19, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
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