Habs Eyes On The Prize: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: College Football Preseason Top 25 Rankings

Price / Halak - The Stats - December 2009

 
Pricevshalak_dec_medium 

While watching the movie "The International", I came across the following quote by the New York DA, trying to explain the layers of bullshit that make the truth almost impossible to uncover.

"There's what people want to hear, there's what people want to believe, there's everything else, THEN there's the truth!

When I heard the quote, I couldn't help but think of the nonsense surrounding the ongoing Price / Halak debate. It was onsense that boiled to the surface once again on the strength of 243 great minutes by Jaroslav Halak in mid- December. This debate continues to be driven by individual ego, bias and agenda and based very little on substance

It is very easy to understand how it happens. An individual makes a declaration that Price is better at a pub or on a message board and watches intently hoping to have their opinion proven right in order to trot out their prediction to prove their wealth of knowledge (EGO). Said individual now watches each game looking for flaws in Halak's game to justify their statement (BIAS) then pushes forth those flaws in order to make his or her point (AGENDA). At this point the opinion has become skewed and the quest for the truth has dissipated. He or she ignores what they do not want to hear or believe and search out  those with an agreeable perspective.

The result? Sides are formed and you have Team Price and Team Halak.

Ego, agenda and bias constantly lead to intelligent individuals making nonsensical statements. When Team Price brings up lack of goal support, Team Halak's response is "the team plays tighter in front of Price and does not take chances because they are worried he will let in a bad goal". Team Price's counter argument? "The Canadiens play a looser game in front of Halak because they know they will need 3-4 goals to win the game". Neither of these statements is based in reality and are the rationales seem to have been created in order to push forth and back up individual agendas.

Everybody has a personal preference that skews their perspective, but it is a shame that the internet has devolved into a giant pissing match of "I told you, I was right, therefore I win and hence you are dumb" arguments. At the end of the day does it really matter if you are right? Does anybody keep score? The loudest opinion is not the most insightful and succinct. All that matters to me is that I provoke thought and provide you a window into my mind to see what I am thinking. It is then up to you to figure out whether you want to continue to peer through that window or not.

Bill Simmons is diametrically opposed to almost every pro sports team I support. He is a Bruins (Habs), Red Sox (Yankees), Celtics (Raptors) and Patriots (Jets) fan. I read him because I appreciate his perspective and look past his admitted bias. In his 700 page "Book of Basketball" his thesis revolved around "the secret", a secret he discovered while watching the 1986 Boston Celtics perform. The team was an integral element in the foundation of his love of the game. Should I then be surprised that he spent the first 650 pages praising the "the secret" of the 1986 Celtics and the players who embraced this secret, then finally come to the conclusion that the greatest team of all-time was the 1986 Celtics? Of course not, but he sure made a damn good case and I admired his opinion because he poured over every book written about the legends of the game, watched endless video and did not rely solely on statistics to come up with his opinions alone. At the end of the day, I read 700 pages and didn't care whether he was right or wrong, he succeeded in moving the gears of my mind.

When individuals try to discredit my perspective as having a Price bias, ultimately they are correct. Like Simmons and the Celtics, I got my goaltending Ph. D watching Patrick Roy. I watched him take a position that was being played in a nonsensical manner and improve it to unparalleled levels. From his evolution of using equipment not only to protect himself, but stop the puck, to his work in exploiting percentages to his advantage, Roy began the lineage that lead to today's goaltender. Because of this, my idea of the ultimate goaltender resembles Carey Price more than Jaroslav Halak. Does that cripple my credibility? That is up to you to decide. I am not skewing numbers, nor am I basing my opinion on numbers alone. The point of these articles is to provide the reader with nuggets of information hidden beneath the surface for the reader to either buy into what I'm selling, or pass on it. It is of little significance to me whether or not you come to the same conclusion as I.

I cannot provide you with the truth because I cannot break through your personal bias, agenda or ego. Your truth is always going to remain what you want to hear and believe. It will exist in your influences and your preferences. These articles are the truth that I believe, ultimately it is up to you to peer through the window or pass it by.

All told, these balanced and fair number comparisons and scenarios make their own case.

Price / Halak December 2009

December was an interesting month in this ongoing debate. Just when everybody thought Price had solidified the starting job in November, Halak rebounded and added fuel to the fire with a dominant December showing.

During a 243 minute span, Halak faced 186 shots while surrendering only 6 goals for an obscene .967 SV%. WIth one of the best young goaltending tandems in the NHL, a large number of Canadiens fans however, chose not to appreciate their contribution in saving a lost season, but rather chose to simplify the teams struggles in their eyes by turning their frustration towards the last line of defense.

With the images of Halak's dominant stretch fresh in everyone's mind, it seemed as though he had finally distanced himself from Price. As Price struggled while allowing a couple of brutal softies that cost the Canadiens a pair of games, the perception began to emerge that Halak had outplayed Price in the month of December.

However, a look at their stats over those 17 games does not back up that perception.

Pricevshalak_dec_wl_medium

On the whole, the overall mental imagery of Halak's strong performances bypasses the 3 games in which he gave up 14 goals on 100 shots.

Not contrarily, the visual impact of Price reaching over his head and deflecting two pucks into his own net is too powerful to offset the memory of the 4 games in which he gave up only 5 goals.

The biggest difference maker in the perception of the month, was that Halak's four great games took place in succession. Watching Halak's sustained greatness over that streak tends to work as a sort of blinder for some other individual game performances for the rest of his month The strong streak also masks the fact that in four of his five December starts, Halak registered mediocre save percentages of .838, .852, .889 and .889.

Price's month was full of bad goals (5 by my count), three of which were crucial mistakes in losses against Pittsburgh, New Jersey and Minnesota. These mistakes overshadowed five strong but unconsecutive starts with save percentages of .971, .926, .927, .933 and .974.

Taken all togeher, these easily overlooked factors lead to their save percentages being essentially one goal apart.

Looking strictly at their win totals can also lead to incomplete conclusions. Last month I introduced Win Threshold in order to emphasize that wins are essentially a byproduct of goal support and that they are in fact a team-based statistic.

Halak produced 4 of his 6 wins against Toronto, Carolina, Florida and the New York Islanders (who own a combined 51-70-29 won / loss record) with his most impressive win coming against the Atlanta Thrashers. During the month, the winning percentage of the teams he faced was a combined .520. Price faced only one team below the .500 level, the Maple Leafs. Seven of his eight opponents were at .500 or better. Halak's win threshold during December was .914 as the Canadiens provided him with 31 goals in his 9 starts. Price's win threshold in December was .930 as the offense produced 17 goals in 8 starts.

Halak_winthresh_dec_2_medium

Halak enjoyed plenty of goal support in December. A goals against average of 3.18 and a save percentage of .914 would have produced a .500 record. His play was exemplary against the Senators, Islanders, Thrashers and Hurricanes, but in those 4 games he had 16 goals in support. As Robert pointed out, the return of Markov helped to rejuvenate the powerplay and Halak was a definite beneficiary.

Price_winthresh_dec_medium

Price's December was a stark contrast to Halak. In order to salvage a .500 record, Price would have had to produce league-leading numbers, as his goal support was almost non-existent. Shockingly, he almost did. The Canadiens produced only 17 goals in 8 games and 5 times registered less than 2 goals

Through all this research, I have begun to ignore a goaltender's won / loss record when I assess a goaltenders play. Halak's record during his career in games in which the Canadiens scored 2 goals or less is 3-23. His record in which they register 3 goals or more is 38-2-2. Looking at current stars Ryan Miller, Roberto Luongo and Martin Brodeur (the league leader with 27 wins) further illustrates this point.

Ryan Miller's record in games where the Sabres register 2 goals or less in 2010? 4-10.
Roberto Luongo's record in games where the Canucks register 2 goals or less in 2010? 2-10
Martin Broduer's record in games where the Devils register 2 goals or less in 2010? 5-9-1

Pricevshalak_gls_medium

After viewing the threshold and goal support numbers, it becomes pretty clear that wins are a team based statistic and should not be used to solidify any argument in regards to the effectiveness or value of a goaltender.

Looking at Halak's December opponents, I wondered if his statistics had been influenced by the strength of his schedule? Have his statistics been earned under the same conditions as Price?

Over the last 3+ seasons, Halak has faced 25 teams with sub .500 records in his 70 career starts. Parity reigns supreme in the new NHL as only 5 of 30 teams finished below .500 In the last 2 seasons. Halak has faced a sub .500 team four of every 10 starts when less than 20% of the league has a losing record. Contrast that to Price who has faced 21 teams below .500 in 116 starts.

Pricevshalak_sop_medium

(Note: all records referenced were through January 4th, 2009, by the time this is posted borderline teams like the Isles, Panthers and Lightning might move above or below the .500 level altering the figures slightly, but when Halak faced them, they were on the south side of .500).  

The results paint a striking portrait. Halak has certainly benefited from an easier workload. It is shocking to see how dominant Halak has been against the bottom 5 in the league and how mediocre Price has been. Is this a function of poor focus on Price's part? Should this be viewed as a negative against Price? Or do you assess that it is better to excel against the teams that you will face more often? Personally, I want the goaltender that produces against the majority of the league because only 16% of the league is below .500. This is a telling statistic in terms of assessing the future and the reason that the emotion and euphoria of Halak's 243 minutes cannot be overstated in regards to his overall body of work.

You do not trade the 5th overall pick who has compiled a resume at age 22 that only 3-4 players in modern history can equal at the same age, especially when the bulk of your secondary option's success has occurred against the bottom five teams in the league. Unfortunately, Halak has placed a gun to Gainey's head in regards to a decision, He can no longer wait to see who is better. He has to base his decision on their whole body of work and choose. So that means their junior careers (Price), their AHL careers (Price) and their NHL careers (statistically even) are the basis for his judgement. Add in that he has groomed Price and laid the brickwork of his foundation and Gainey would not be doing his due diligence if he chose Halak over Price. It would be a pure gamble based on guesswork and hope. 

Gainey is perhaps counting on one of his peers overstating a month or two of work and overpaying for Halak's services. At this point, his overall body of work does not warrant a top six forward, but the combination of his potential and his recent play might shake one loose. Halak has played great, but I also don't think it is a coincidence that since Gainey went to the media about the shopping Halak on Dec 10th that Halak has started 5 of his 8 games against teams below .500 while Price has faced zero in his seven starts.

Halak_statcomp_dec_medium
Halak's numbers since November 1st have been fantastic. The biggest difference that I have noticed between Halak and Price over the last two months is the gaps between spectacular and concentration lapses. They are less pronounced with Halak. Outside of his rebound control, his play has been remarkably efficient. His positioning has been strong and remains one of the reasons that his saves seem less spectacular. His focus has allowed him to remain efficient and as an undersized goaltender this is critical. The video below shows Halak at his best.

It is as though he has a rope attached from his pants to the center bar of the net allowing him to square up the shooter at all times.

The result?

Pucks acting like magnets to the CH logo on his chest.

In almost every instance he has maintained the proper depth in his crease and his gap control on breakaways has removed the option of the deke, forcing the shooters into low percentage shots that he easily contains. Approaching 25, he is beginning to figure out the pace and tendencies of the league and mature as an NHL goaltender, there is no doubt that he has become a number one NHL goaltender, the question is can he become a dominant franchise changing goaltender?

  

Price_statcomp_dec_medium

Price's numbers represent to me why statistical analysis alone is unreliable. I have watched every game, viewed every goal and charted shot position and watched him play great hockey in October and produce terrible stats. In October he simplified his game and returned to the economical beast he was when he entered the league. He used his size to his advantage, moved away from strictly butterfly towards a hybrid style that allowed him to remain non-committal (allowing him to wait out the shooter), he avoided concentration lapses and with that allowed less poor goals.

In November he took his game to the next level with sprinkles of athleticism to his game while maintaining an economy of movement. Price looked like he had many figured things out. Then the concentration lapses began to creep back into his play. With these lapses came bad / questionable goals in December (8 of the18 by my count) and although he provided plenty of highlight reel saves, to me these represented a slight regression as he was relying on instinct and athleticism to bail himself out.

If you watch the highlight reel below, almost all of his spectacular saves are born of questionable positioning. Over pursuing the play and scrambling back, average gap control on breakaways that force him to rely on his length and quickness to make the save. The positive being that he has the ability to make these remarkable recoveries. The negative aspect being some of them are unnecessary. His stats present somewhat of a paradox, they suggest a goaltender that is getting better every game even though his consistency and positioning have regressed. This is the tease of his youth, watching all the tools flash their brilliance individually, coming tantalizingly close to coalescing into the dominant goaltender we all expect, then back to the tantalizing flashes.

GOALS AGAINST

Pricevshalak_dec_goals_medium

This is the one area where Halak blows away Price in December. Strength of opposition and goal support have no bearing on the softies that Price has allowed. They were concentration lapses of the highest degree, long shots that he misjudged and point shots that he failed to track properly, plays that he should complete regardless of the situation. It also cannot go without mention that the perception continues to be reality in regards to his weakness high glove side, half of the poor goals he allowed were high glove side and two were back breakers.

Most of Halak's transgressions were from failure to control his rebounds or born of Huet disease (drop in the butterfly, don't battle to track the puck and assume you have your percentages covered and the puck will hit you). All goals that can be argued as faultless, but goals that most likely were reassessed in the following day's practice.

Halak_goals_dec_medium

Bad or suspect goals indicated in bold.

1. Long shot, big rebound cashed in by Clarke MacArthur as he beats Halak high stick side. 15 ft.
2. Backhand, Halak struggles with rebound, Jason Pominville beats Halak low stick side. 10 ft.

3. Pominville out of the corner, cross crease for Roy who taps it in beating Halak low stick side. 13 ft.
4. Vanek shot, Halak struggles with the rebound as Tim Kennedy beats him high glove side. 9 ft.
5. Slapshot from the blueline seems to beat a screened Halak low stick side. 56 ft.
6. 2 on 1. Thomas Vanek feeds Mike Grier for a cross crease tap-in that beats Halak low glove side. 8 ft.
7. Michalek shot from the slot picked up by Mike Fisher as he lifts it over Halak high stick side. 6 ft.
8. Andrej Sekera slap shot from the point beats Halak low stick side. 58 ft.
9. 2 on 1, shorthanded. Tim Connolly sends Patrick Kaleta in alone as he beats Halak 5-hole. 6 ft.
10. Scramble in front as Tim Kennedy finds the puck and beats Halak low stick side. 11 ft.
11. 5 on 3 PP. Drew Stafford cross crease for MacArthur for a  tap-in beating Halak low glove side. 5 ft.
12. Ron Hainsey shot from a bad angle deflects in off Ilya Kovalchuk beating Halak low glove side. 3 ft.
13. Point shot by Kubina handcuffs Halak and Nik Antropov slides the puck into an empty net. 6 ft.
14. 5 on 4 PP. Point shot stopped , rebound slid home by Antropov beating Halak low stick side. 7 ft.
15. 5 on 4 PP. Point shot stopped, Brandon Sutter on the rebound beats Halak low glove side. 10 ft.
16. Ian White point shot knuckles by Halak beating him low stick side. 59 ft.
17. Scramble, Jason Blake makes an attempt as the puck hits him and beats Halak low glove side. 5 ft.
18. Chris Campoli point shot stopped, rebound to Peter Regin beats him high glove side. 18 ft.
19. 5 on 4 PP. Point shot by Ryan Shannon that beats Halak high glove side. Possible screen. 55 ft.
20. Fisher out of the corner, stopped, rebound batted in by Chris Neil, beating Halak over his head. 4 ft.
21. Keith Ballard end to end gets in alone on Halak and beats him high stick side. Odorous. 8 ft.
22. Nathan Horton clear cut breakaway beats Halak high stick side. 6 ft.
23. 3 on 2. Horton feeds Michael Frolik in the slot as he beats Halak low glove side. 15 ft.
24. Radek Dvorak beats Halak high stick side through a screen from a poor angle. 10 ft.

 

Price_goals_dec_medium

Bad or suspect goals indicated in bold.

1. Price makes initial save, Colton Orr hops on the rebound and beats Price low stick side. 7 ft.
2. Jeff Finger slapshot from the point beats Price low stick side. Very odorous. 45 ft.
3. Matt Stajan on a breakaway beats Price high glove side. 23 ft.
4. Matt Hunwick point shot deflected in the slot by Vladimir Sobotka beating Price high stick side. 24 ft.
5. Daniel Briere fights off a check and chips the puck over Price, beating him high glove side. 16 ft.
6. Bill Guerin from the corner finds a pinching Gonchar who beats a transitioning Price 5-hole. 13 ft.
7. Sergei Gonchar shot from the point tipped in by Matt Cooke beating Price high stick side. 7 ft.
8. Pascal Dupuis slapshot deflected, misplayed by Price beating him high glove side. 38 ft.
9. Wrist shot from the point by Christoph Schubert beats Price cleanly high glove side. 56 ft.
10. Scramble as Colby Armstrong slides the puck into an empty net beating a scrambling Price. 18 ft.
11. Nik Antropov from the bottom of the circle beats Price high stick side through a screen. 12 ft.
12. 4 on 3 PP. Ilya Kovalchuk off the wing beats Price from the face-off dot high glove side. 27 ft.
13. Iikka Pikkarainen shot handcuffs Price and the puck bounces off the post, his pad and in. 38 ft.
14. Patrik Elias sneaks in behind the D and puts home his own rebound beating Price low glove side. 9 ft.
15. Robbie Earl off the wing beats Price 5-hole. Odorous. 21 ft.
16. 5 on 4 PP. Corner feed from Martin Havlat to Mikko Koivu deflected beats Price low stick side. 12 ft.
17. Shot wide, Price slow to get across the crease as Cal Clutterbuck beats him low glove side. 5 ft.
18. Kurtis Foster slapshot from the point beats Price high glove side. 57 ft.

 

Halak_sv__dec_medium

Sv_perzone_halakdec_medium

Halak has been fantastic on mid range shots, allowing only two goals all season between 21'-39'. HIs save percentage in each zone has also risen from an early season low of .712 to his current mark of .842. The Canadiens improved penalty kill continues to benefit both goalies as Halak carried an obscene .962 SV% while shorthanded in December, when added to his elite level .935 even strength percentage the results lead to a monster month in which he was honoured with the Molson Cup and the NHL 1st star of the week during the last week of December. I can picture Bob Gainey sitting at his desk, feet up, hands clasped, smoking a stogie as he places Paul Holmgren on hold.

Halak_sagp60_dec_medium

Shotsperzone_halakdec_medium

Bombardment would be the proper verb to describe what Halak faced in December. WIth the Canadiens consistently surrendering 40+ shots per game, Halak was relied upon to remain flawless in order to keep the Canadiens season alive. When adding in attempts at the goal (missed shots + blocks), Halak's nightly menu consisted of over a shot attempt per minute (67). It is not a recipe for long term success and when coupled with the stronger teams on the schedule and little goal support, it lead to unsatisfactory results. The shot quality is decreasing as the season progresses, and with Halak's superb work beyond 20 feet, if the Canadiens can continue to improve and limit shots to the perimeter, both goaltenders will continue to provide big numbers.

Price_sv__dec_medium
Sv_perzone_pricedec_medium

While Price's numbers continue to improve seemingly across the board, two numbers are concerning. His even strength save percentage continues to drop from the elite levels he produced in October, it is the only statistic that is consistent with my perceived drop in his level of play. His overall numbers were masked early by an inept penalty kill and his decline is now being masked by the dominance of the same unit. Price was also unbeatable early in the season from beyond 40 feet, but that number is also beginning to slip. Am I greatly concerned with these trends? Not really, it comes with the gamble of rolling the dice with a young goaltender and judging by his history we are in for another peak and decline over the next 3 months.

Price_sagp60_dec_medium

Shotsperzone_pricedec_medium

After hanging Price out to dry over the first 2 months, the Canadiens have begun to show signs of limiting scoring opportunities. His shot attempts have finally dipped below a shot per minute and he was rarely hung out to dry like he routinely was during the first two months of the season. Let's just call it the Andrei Markov factor. When Jacques Martin makes the required tweaks to his "give up 40 shots per night and rely on the goaltender" system, the Canadiens should be in good position for a strong second half surge.

The December verdict: I will preface this by mentioning that this whole discussion should be a non-starter, both goalies have been a godsend in 2010 and the Canadiens would be in the Taylor Hall sweepstakes without them, but the controversies never seems to go away. I made mention of Larocque / Dryden and Hayward / Roy in my pre-season article, but their is really no excuse for this debate in today's environment. 20-30 years ago the casual fan did not have access to player game logs, shot logs, previous years standings, strength of opposition, the SI vault or highlights at your fingertips to develop an educated opinion. Their opinion was based on what they saw with their own eyes, what the weekly Hockey News statistics told them and the hyperbole they were spoon fed by local media. That was and remains understandable, but watching what the fanbase is doing to these kids is not. This whole debate is raging over individual egos and has nothing to do with what is happening on the ice or in the locker room. Mentioning either of their names in blame for a loss is uninspired, unimaginative and just plain lazy. 

The simple answer to the question is that both goaltenders have been great in 2009-10. I deemed them equal in October, Price ran with the ball in November and Halak outplayed Price in December. A boxing scorecard would read 10-10, 10-9, 9-10 for a three round score of 29-29. When factoring in win threshold/goal support, quality of competition and future potential, my opinion from October remains unchanged. Neither goaltender is significantly outplaying the other and the things I see from Price foretell a higher ceiling. 

Little did I know that when I prefaced the season by asking god to bless the irrational nature of Hab fans that they would in turn provide me with an excuse to blather on for 4000+ words about a goaltending controversy based entirely on hyperbole.

So in honour of unearned obscene hit counts, God Bless us all.....again!

3 recs  |  Comment 57 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Habs Eyes On The Prize

Habs Top 25 Under 25:  5-2

Sep 2010 by Bruce Peter - 26 comments

Habs Top 25 Under 25:  10-6

Aug 2010 by Bruce Peter - 22 comments

Habs Top 25 Under 25:  15-11

Aug 2010 by Bruce Peter - 3 comments

Habs Top 25 Under 25:  20-16

Aug 2010 by Bruce Peter - 3 comments

Comments

Display:

You are right when you say both goaltenders have been a godsend. Goaltending is the one thing with the Habs that is most assuredly Not The Problem, and one would argue pretty much the only good thing the Habs have going for them. A questionable system, a terrible 5-on-5 game, serious trouble in the first period, a ghastly penalty differential, a lack of transition — there are any number of real problems for the Habs brass to tackle and for commenters and media to point their attention at. Why is picking a primary goaltender seen as a life-and-death issue when, in reality, it’s more an entertaining sideshow?

Picking between Price and Halak, really, makes no material difference as to whether the team wins or loses. It’s a fun and worthwhile discussion to have, and I apreciate the effort you put in these statistics, but it needs to be kept in the correct perspective, and you are wise to point out that, ultimately, it matters little.

I will say, though, that I am left with the definite impression that some media folks fuel the debate, and weigh in on Halak’s side, largely for reasons that have nothing to do with goaltending. Basically, they go with Halak because Price is seen as Gainey’s golden boy, and they want to cast the GM as irrational and disrespectful of Halak in order to draw sympathy on their campaign against him.

As Mathias Brunet points out in his blog, Halak is also the feel-good story, the underdog who’s had to fight for everything, so wanting to see him win is natural for sports fans. Still, Price does not need to fail for Halak to succeed.

by MathMan on Jan 10, 2010 9:16 PM EST reply actions  

The reason it has become a debate is because the playing field has rarely been level. It was great to see Halak get a start against the strong Devils team, whereas we have gotten used to seeing him sparkle against bottom feeders. I for one would enjoy a role reversal, just to see the results. As it stands thus far, it seems the club has been playing each goalie to their strengths, evidently.

by Robert L on Jan 10, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s a perception running around out there that Halak has somehow been wronged, a perception that I personally feel comes from his status as a feel-good underdog story, and IMHO has been fed by media types who’d like to use that perception to discredit Gainey.

In reality I feel Halak is really playing a heck of a lot, more so than any typical #2. This year especially Martin has been ruthlessly riding the hot hand, which is probably the most rational approach to take. The two are very good goalies, but also young — they’re going to have good and bad stretches, and Martin has done a fine job of handling them, I think.

by MathMan on Jan 11, 2010 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m with Robert. I think the play is more level, and with Martin to whisper in Gainey’s ear (not Carbo) so has the playing field. Hence his increased playing time.

Halak isn’t only a feel-good underdog story anymore, but also a feel-good noticeably improving goalie. His technique is improving before our eyes. He’s not as flappy anymore. I think he’s been getting some good coaching. There’ll be a ceiling, of course, but to see improvement is encouraging.

The reason there is debate is because these are two massive assets at a position where only one can play. If we had 12 great forwards and 6 great defencemen as well, there’d be no unrest, but we don’t. The question (or controversy) stems from the desire to use one of the two assets to get a player we can use game in, game out. From there, it is a question of which trade will yield more, and (for me) which trade will result in a better team at the end of the day.

The debate is getting more complex as the goalies both pull into the heady 0.920+ level, as return on trade and future with this team become harder to tell apart.

At the end of the day though, whether it be media, or just us here, all this debate is just good fun. Gainey is no more discredited by a newspaper article than he is pushed into doing something by a blog. While we do our best not to overrate and underrate goalies, let’s be careful not to overrate our own importance, or that of the media.

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Don’t get me wrong, I do think that if Gainey looks to trade a goalie, he must look long and hard at which one to trade, and if one (Price most likely) has more market value, whether the drop-off in future goaltending ability (if any!) is worth the difference in trade return.

Still, I think one point from your comment has to be distinguished for emphasis, for this debate to be kept into proper perspective: both goaltenders have been crazy good. Especially for their age.

by MathMan on Jan 11, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Remember Robert?

Robert, I mentioned to you that we should split the goaltending duties 50/50 before the season started just like the old day of Roy/Hayward.
Do you still agree with sharing goaltending duties?
I still feel we need both goalies down the stretch equal playing time! If we do make the playoffs, let the better goalie shine according to Jacques Martin and no suprise Halak is performing well and I am not giving up on Price, not yet.

We will win the Cup only with a mature Carey Price in the nets

by RetroMikey on Jan 11, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

By the way, I’d rather spend more money on the best 1-2 goaltending duo in the NHL we have then sign the big bucks on free agent DMen when we know we can hopefully get Carle, Subban, and Weber coming up next year and hopefully Krneev or Emelin from Russia, we do have good young DMen for the future.

We will win the Cup only with a mature Carey Price in the nets

by RetroMikey on Jan 11, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. What this team needs is improvement on mostly everything BUT goaltending.
Gainey did not do Price any favor by persisting in playing him in games 3 and 4 (or, at least game 4) in the playoffs last spring.
I hope that we keep both goaltenders as long as possible. They both have a better chance of success that way. I don’t think either is capable of handling the kind of pressure the team allows in front of them game after game. After 3 or 4 games in succession, both Price and Halak seem to get burned out and need a break.

Overall, I would just like to see the team win. I like both goaltenders. I hate the way Gainey handled things last Spring, but that’s not Price’s fault. He is the more talented of the two, however, I don’t think the team plays as well in front of him. He has way more pressure on him, and some people are just waiting for him to make any mistake and make an issue out of it.
I think if they traded Price they could get more than Halak. As important as goaltending is, it’s more important to have a solid system, which we don’t have. I’d trade both goaltenders for Lou Lamoriello as GM. Put anyone behind the Devils bench and anyone in goal and they do well.

by nyhabsfan on Jan 10, 2010 10:34 PM EST reply actions  

On a tangent note, imagine what Lamouriello would do with Price as his successor to Brodeur over the next decade. Put Price behind the Devils system….

by Robert L on Jan 10, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Superb scientific analysis – exactly the kind of sober thought and support Gainey (or any GM) needs to make his ultimate decision. That said, however, I found your ego-bias-agenda argument is even more meaningful, and one that all us pathetic human beings need to reflect on – daily. Thanks for all that time and effort, Chris!

by true on Jan 10, 2010 11:40 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with that statement – us humans hate to be proven wrong. Damn, it makes us all look so….human!

by Robert L on Jan 10, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Halak vs Price

Wow excellent article! Very well thought out and logically argued. I agree totally although my personal biases are well in place… Gainey is a crafy SOB, someone is going to bite on the bait sometime in early March, right after Halak, turns in an outrageous stand on your head Olympic performance look for him to embarass a top 10 international goalie.

This will trigger the BG hail mary acquisition for the Habs sliding into the playoffs…

by SeriousHabit on Jan 11, 2010 12:36 AM EST reply actions  

Amazing article!

Wow, what a great article! What a great analysis. I also compiled a lot of statistics as of late, and came with my own conclusions. Halak is amazing against weaker teams, Price is better against better teams. That was obvious and you came to the same conclusions.

I don’t know if you read french, but if you do, I invite you to read/listen to my own analysis.

The first article confirms two things: First and foremost, the issue is not the starting goalie, but the lineup with or without Markov. With or without Andrei Kostitsyn. And if Plekanec and Cammalleri record points in a game.

http://tricolore.ca/chfans/canadiens/47778-lachez-moi-avec-ces-fausses-statistiques.html

Halak started more games with Markov in the lineup than Price. Price won every games against weaker teams when Markov was in the lineup, same with Halak, but Halak started more games. But the common variable here is Markov, not the goalie.

Halak is weak with the puck, creating more shots against him, that affects his statistics.

My second article talks about the most important problem with the Montreal Canadiens: The depth. For example, when Cammalleri and/or Plekanec score points or not. It’s unreal. When both don’t record points in the same game, Montreal is 3-10-1. But when either record points, Montreal is 16-8-3 if Cammalleri does, 17-5-3 when Plekanec does, 15-3-2 when both record points in the same game!

In short, the most important thing is to make them generate points, not who’s in net. And especially, when the lineup is full or close to it. Halak started 11 of his 19 starts against weaker teams. Price started 21 of his 28 starts against teams with an above 0.500 average. That makes a difference in the quality of shots they face.

by Daniel Bigras on Jan 11, 2010 2:13 AM EST reply actions  

It’s all about the goal support and everyone knows that better players point more against weaker teams. The problem at present is that strong clubs shut down Plekanec and Cammalleri.

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 3:27 AM EST up reply actions  

To add to the mix

Thought this might be an interesting sidebar for those who are interested. I looked at the games that Price and Halak have played with 0.500 levels (their own results taken out, as well as real 0.500 levels (OTL=L). Halak certainly gets the bulk of his wins against those lower points teams, but the effect on who gets the start is quite minimal.

http://www.lionsinwinter.ca/2010/01/does-halak-get-easy-marks.html

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I did the same analysis in french, in the first of my links.

75% of Price’s starts are against stronger teams. 47% of Halak’s starts are against stronger teams. Price has more wins against strong teams. But the team is far from 0.500 against strong teams, even with Price. 7-12-2.

But as I mentionned before, Halak had the luxury of having Markov in the lineup for almost half his games. And with Markov in the line-up, it doesn’t matter who’s in net, Montreal won every single game (12 out of 12, 10 for Halak, 2 for Price).

Robert is right. Our top line is good, against weak teams, but is shy against good ones. That’s the real problem, not the goalies.

by Daniel Bigras on Jan 11, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, you are right Robert. Most of the time, Cammalleri and Plekanec do not rack points against good teams. And when they do, they win.

Still, the key for the Canadiens is to that when the top line record points, the Canadiens win very often. For some reason, thought, when Gomez’s line record points, it has very low impact on the games results. It seems that the top line is the one that has an impact on the win column or not.

For example, Cammalleri’s hat trick against the Rangers. Without that performance, Halak would have lost one of his only 2 wins against good teams. Price seems to be able to get more wins against good teams.

by Daniel Bigras on Jan 11, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh my, were we wrong. In 30 games against teams with an above 0.500 average, Cammalleri scored 16 goals and added 8 helpers. It’s against weaker teams he scores less, only 4 goals and 9 assists in 17 games.

As for Plekanec, he has 22 points (6 goals, 16 assists) against stronger teams, but has 24 points in 17 games against weaker teams (4 goals and 20 assists). So, Cammalleri has more points and especially more goals against stronger teams, but Plekanec has less. Vice versa.

So, no, the strong teams don’t shut down the number 1 line as often as we thought, Robert.

by Daniel Bigras on Jan 11, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent work! This series of post is truly impressive. It’s great to see someone taking the time to try to look at the goalie situation without bias.

You have a very good point about the wins statistic being misleading. Wins are a team stat and it’s unfair to use it to assess an individual performance. But at the same time, I’m not sure we should completely dismiss this stat category. The win treshold stat is very interesting, but the problem is that it treats the team performance as something completely independent from the goalie play. Allowing a bad goal can deflate a team, and a series of great saves can turn the momentum of a game. So I think the number of goals scored by the habs also indirectly depends on how the guy in their nets performs. What I mean is that you can’t treat wins as an individual stat for the goalies, but at the same time goaltenders do have an impact on how the team in front of them plays.

And I have a very minor question: I’m not sure I understand the logic in the colors you used to paint the parts of the net where Price and Halak allow goals. How did you choose to paint it green or red?

Personally I really love both of our goalies. I have a soft spot for Halak, not because I think he’s playing better, but because I like his personality. But I’d definitely be happy anyway if Price spends his career in Montreal and fulfills his potential.

http://softeuropean.wordpress.com

by Grrrreg on Jan 11, 2010 5:44 AM EST reply actions  

Before anything else, your Halak Save percentages in the Halak win threshold table are actually Price’s. It did look strange that Halak achieved lower save percentages than required to win…

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 7:36 AM EST reply actions  

Boyle, pulled the goalie on that one! He is in the Dominican at the moment, so I corrected his graphic.

In descending order, those save percentage stats now read: FLA 32-36 .888, OTT 24-27 .888, TOR 47-49 .959, CAR 46-47 .978, ATL 47-50 .940, NYI 40-40 1.00, Buf 23-27 .852, OTT 45-46 .978 and Buf 30-36 .833

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Strange preface

A bit of a strange opening, a pre-emptive swipe perhaps?

Anyway, the numbers do tell the story on their own, when you put them all together. I suppose the bias comes in which numbers we all value, and which ones we choose to dedicate the most columns of text to.

I do have a challenge. I am among a growing number of people who are getting uneasy about the recurring coincidence of goal support and Price. I was wondering if in your repertoire of numbers and notes you might have anything interesting on faceoffs, what happens after shots, rebounds, etc. Maybe a project too far for you, but someone might pick up the torch on it…

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 7:45 AM EST reply actions  

I think the difference in goal support is just a weird fluke. I was really struck by Robert’s article from earlier where he showed how over the course of a month, the Habs’ PP clicked for 4.5% while Price was in net and over 45% while Halak was in net. It’s a power play, it’s really hard to see how shots, rebounds, faceoffs, confidence in the goalie, or anything pertaining to the goalie would make a difference in PP production, and just that accounted for (I think it was) 13 goals — that one factor explained the difference in goal support before the two goalies for that month!

by MathMan on Jan 11, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Markov’s return coincided with Halak four game surge, to be totally precise. He may also have been more rusty on defense, accounting for the jump in shots on goal. Andrei stepped in with big minutes right away but his influence was better felt with the man advantage.

That on it’s own is not a knock on Halak, but is simply stated to note that Price’s totals weren’t given the opportunity for that boon.

In all, whatever the circumstances, the goal support factor still tends to cut the mustard between these two goalies.

The anology might be: Halak won’t catch frostbite in California and Price won’t get a tan in Alaska, if you follow.

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

How many goals were scored by Habs when the opposing team was pushing hard in the last 10 minutes of a game. Less defense on their side? Empty netters?

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand

This is a nice article but I don’t understand a few things.

(Note: all records referenced were through January 4th, 2009, by the time this is posted borderline teams like the Isles, Panthers and Lightning might move above or below the .500 level altering the figures slightly, but when Halak faced them, they were on the south side of .500).

Halak never played Tampa this year.
Did you mean Jan 4/2010? The date should be irrelevant. If you count the record at the time of the game there is no relationship to the date. There is no number alteration. What record do you count the whole season?

This stat is not that great. The better stat would be the last 10 games of the opposing team. It would better reflect injuries, up swing, down slide of the opposition.

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

Just an example when Habs played Leafs in December. Toronto was 5-4-1 in their last 10 games coming to the game.
They beat Was, Ott, Bos and they OL was against Buffalo. Toronto was playing very good hockey and right after that game they even beat Pittsburgh the following day.
That was a very tough game for Montreal. Toronto played better than .500 hockey at the time.

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s as subjective as anything is. A team can have a sub .500 record one game before meeting the Canadiens, but be coming off a three game win streak. It’s a matter of how many variables are there to consider. It can be endless really. For argument and simplicity sake, the record at the time is the only non-variable there is to go by.

I can get like this….a team is 2 games over the mark, but missing it’s top two scorers. Still a .500 team?

On Saturday, against the Devils in a one goal game, we get Yann Danis instead of Brodeur at the opposite end. Still a division leading team?

Canadiens play many of these team with offsetting changes, minus Markov and Gionta, so the playing field never allows for a perfectly set scenario.

Stat deductions are merely a scoop of truth in at the moment generalizations. They are by nature imperfect, but conclude things better than whims and surface based analysis…i.e. the goalie with the most wins is automatically better.

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

You are right but I believe that my point still stands. The last 10 games would be better and more indicative then the full season.

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

The full season is not being considered. For me, the record at the time is a fair statement on the team played that night.

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Pittsburgh +.600 team 28-17-1 (season) or <.500 3-7 (the last 10)?
They lost to Tampa, Florida, Toronto recently. They are in a major slump.

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Philadelphia being the prime example…

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

… or Pittsburgh on the other side 3-7???

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you make a great point. The 0.500 level on January 4th may be irrelevant to the game that was played. Philadelphia is above 0.500 now, but were below when we played them. The Islanders were above when we played them early on.

But do spare a thought for the guy who did all this work. It takes a lot of effort to dig that up retrospectively. And really, it’s not the most impressive stat from this collection anyway.

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

This is an amazing article.
I am just pointing out a consideration how to improve it.

by Jaaanosik on Jan 11, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I know, just thought it may be to someone else to do some work.

I did an article on Lions in Winter on it and know the work of even this small facet.

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Great job as always, Chris. Apparently you’re off getting some sun (lucky), but I do take some issue with one of your conclusions. I haven’t read it all, and I will finish it soon, but saying Price had a better junior and AHL career I think is a little bit presumptuos. Price did win the World Juniors and won CHL goalie of the year, I’ll grant you that. But when I was working at the World Juniors I flipped through the media guide and found something interesting… for longest shutout streaks at the tournament, they showed the top 5 of all time. Guess who was in there? Not Carey Price, the 2007 WJC MVP. But Jaroslav Halak, who played on a much weaker Slovakian team was on there. It’s interesting because we never hear about Halak’s great WJC performances, but I remember watching him back in 2004 and thinking he actually had potential vs. the other Hab goaltending propsect at the tournament, Sweden’s Chris Heino-Lindberg.

Also, Halak was the top goaltender in the AHL when he was called up in February 2007. At the end of the year, he was sent to the World Championships instead of back to the AHL. That’s where Price took over and won the AHL championship for Hamilton. It can be argued that Halak and Price were the top two goalies in the AHL that year: Halak for the regular season, Price for the playoffs.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jan 11, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

Nicely pointed out.

My big question concerning Halak is that if he were to consistently be challenged by facing all the above .500 teams, would he pass the test. I think that’s what everyone needs to find out.

Maybe such a sampling started Saturday.

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I assume the flip side of your position is that you must be wondering whether Price will ever put to bed this nonsense with win totals by finally taking advantage of weak opposition in the way his back-up does with such aplomb.

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Well yeah. I’d also like to see a SV% stat for both goalies and how they perform when they aren’t peppered. The theory has always been that goalies are more zoned in the busier they are.

That was the great thing about Dryden most nights (minus of course, that infamous Red Army game). He would go one snooze-control and wake up when he smelled the puck.

Carey, for his part, seems to lose focus more in the games where perhaps he needs to be less committed.

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the same thing. And that’s without mentioning how Halak’s career AHL save percentage is the average of his 3 seasons of 0.927, 0.932 and 0.929… pretty gaudy stuff.

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Wonderfully done!

It’s both sad and exciting that this debate continues to rage, even though there are far more pressing things to worry about.

I agree that Price has the higher ceiling. But with the statistics now being so close, the question turns to Gainey’s cap issues and his willingness to go with Price come hell or high water. What will it take to get Price or Halak signed to a long term deal? If the thinking is that dangling Price would net a much better return in a trade than would dangling Halak, then it must also be said that signing Price will cost much more. Considering Plekanec is due for a huge raise, we will only likely be able to afford one goalie or the other.

For argument’s sake, let’s say Plekanec signs for 5M per season, and Price comes in at 4.5M per season (I have no idea what it would take to actually sign Price). 9.5M would leave Gainey pretty much screwed to improve the team otherwise. Now what if it took 5M to sign Plekanec, and Halak is willing to sign for 2.5M. Can Gainey get comparable goaltending from Halak than he believes he can from Price, and get it at a much lower cap hit? And also considering that the saved cap space can be used to address other areas of the team. If the answer to that question is yes, then I believe Gainey will have no other choice but to try and move Price.

That said, I believe that Price is here to stay. I believe Gainey will stick with him for better or worse, and that Halak will be moved at some point, preferably when this season is over, as Halak on his own will not bring back anything of substantial value to help this team in the long run (unless he is a part of a package).

by kyleroussel on Jan 11, 2010 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

I just want to throw a dart for fun, because I can’t resist:

Brian Burke would kill to have this problem.

by MathMan on Jan 11, 2010 3:04 PM EST reply actions  

Great Article

I appreciate all the time and research you obviously spent on it. Good Job. My comment is this- I would love to see a stat that counts the amount of time a goalie comes out of the net to 1. make an errant pass 2. turn the puck over 3. get caught out of the net – I prefer Halak to Price due to this. You spoke of Huet disease, what about Theo disease? Price is badly afflicted with this ailment. I no longer live in Quebec, I’m in Vermont and only get to see the Canadiens games every 2 or 3 weeks or so. As a fan of the Habs for over 40 years, I’ve seen plenty of goalies come and go and several that I wanted to see go away. Theo was one of them, he’s gone and he still stinks. Price is another. I believe, like I did when Theo was with them, that this goalie is mediocre with bad habits. They will not win a cup with him. He’s had decent teams in front of him, especially in the AHL championship season. Halak was robbed after the season, he should have gotten to finish it off instead of Price. This is only my opinion and I also think that one of them must go away for the other to be rid of mental distractions and the added pressure of performing well to keep playing. Thanks and keep up the great Posts. I’ve only recently found these blogs and love it all!!

Those of you who think you know everything just annoy those of us who do!!

by Sully F on Jan 11, 2010 3:37 PM EST reply actions  

Halak wasn’t robbed Sully, he was rewarded. Slovakia called him up to play and he went. Price was the filler. As it happens, Halak may regret taking that flight.

There used to be giveaway stats for goalies more easy to find than they are now. But they are in the game reports. Price was league eader in giveaways midway through last season, and I don’t think it ended any better for him. I think he’s improved a lot since, but haven’t seen the raw numbers.

by Topham on Jan 11, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Giveaway numbers are misleading, particularly in Montreal where they score giveaways like they were handing candy canes. (Montreal has twice as many giveaways at home as they do on the road!) That’s why Habs tend to accumulate very unflattering giveaway stats, but the problem is with the scoring, not so much with the player.

Then there’s the meaning of a giveaway. Andrei Markov is perenially the Habs’ giveaway leader, but I don’t think that means he sucks. It just means he’s more prone to passing the puck, and giveaways are a natural side effect. Price is probably more prone to giveaways for much the same reason — he handles the puck more and sometimes it backfires.

by MathMan on Jan 11, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

The last time I sat and calculated the number of giveaways in a Canadiens game they numbered 37. The game stats said 13. I consider a giveaway any willing or unwilling turnover of the puck. To me, handing over puck possession in any manner is a giveaway. Evidently, there is something I am missing in how they calculate thenumbers

by Robert L on Jan 11, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Willing turnovers of the puck, like the classic clear to center, are probably not counted as giveaways unless they are intercepted inside the zone (and even then, it may not count as such in all arenas). Likewise pucks dumped in the corners probably don’t count as giveaways, nor would opposition takeaways.

The point though is that they count giveaways differently in different arenas, and the Bell Centre is one of the places where they give the most.

by MathMan on Jan 11, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s when watching a game from up high really helps. On camera, intented receivers and coverage aren’t always apparent.

It’s troublesome for me to watch, because on the 1970’s Habs, the giveaway was practically inexistant, with Robinson, Lapointe and Savard to help carry the puck when passing lanes were blurred.

To my eye, what always backs up defenses are forwards who moves their asses soon as the D takes a stride with the puck. On this current team, they stand and wait.

That old saying comes to mind….Some people makes things happen, some people watch what happens and the rest wonder what the fuck just happened.

by Robert L on Jan 12, 2010 2:28 AM EST up reply actions  

However giveaways are counted, the number of our giveaways is staggeringly high. I can’t ever remember a Canadiens team giving away the puck so readily—and particularly not right in front of our net, where an alaming number have occurred. Something tells me it is not entirely attributable to the players’ lack of ability. Our failures to get the puck out of our end—which includes the giveaways—are so terribly comnmon that they seem to be a systemic failure. Perhaps the players are doing something per instruction that they do not feel comfortable doing.

by Peter Young on Jan 11, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

There may be a problem with the system (Lord knows I’ve complained about it) and with giveaways, but the stats just aren’t reliable. The Habs’ total giveaways, and consequently individual players’ numbers, are MUCH too high because of the Bell Centre’s recording bias. We’re talking about a number that’s most likely at least 50% bigger than it would if the Bell Centre’s scorers were league average.

by MathMan on Jan 12, 2010 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I hear you Peter, they are often on different pages. Hockey is such a natural flowing game but today’s clogging of systems has players leaving their zones worried over coverage when their own teams have the puck. It’s mind numbing to an extent.

by Robert L on Jan 12, 2010 2:31 AM EST up reply actions  

This is awesome.

And I’m not even done reading it yet.
The Blackhawks are facing the same division over goaltending (although a lot of it has been HUET SUCKS!!11 NIEMI SHOULD BE STARTING). I wish I had the attention span to do all of this myself.

by Original Six on Jan 11, 2010 5:44 PM EST reply actions  

Brilliant Piece

Chris, this is a stunningly brilliant piece and, as you hope for, ought to get everyone with a head on their shoulders thinking. I’ve not taken any position on Habs Inside/Out in the great goaltender debate because I thought it irrelevant who was No. 1 and who No. 2. Let Martin play the goalitender he thinks best for the game.

Regrettably, however, which is best is not entirely irrelevant because Gainey will be forced to make a choice between these two goaltenders in terms of which one he keeps. Either Halak’s demands for more playing time or salary cap difficulties will force him to get rid of one for the highest price possible. There your thinking might prove very helpful in making the choice. I’m still not entirely sure I agree with all you say—it’s a lot to grasp for this old fan used to looking at things as they did in the old days—but you certainly have got me and many others thinking.

Again, brilliantly done. Many thanks for all your efforts. I hope they are gaining a huge audence among supporters and management of our club. But I’m not sure I’d want management of other clubs exposed to it. It might help them out. And it might lead to them not giving us as much for one of our goaltenders as we might otherwise get.

by Peter Young on Jan 11, 2010 7:32 PM EST reply actions  

Groundbreaking in a very important way

Chris is really going somewhere with those graphs. How to represent data correctly? That is always a troublesome question and Boyle is providing some terrific answers.

I guess there is a threshold of randomness when it comes to any kind of sports stats, and shots aren’t different, and I wonder where it is. But this is nitpicking, really. I wish I had the ability to do something like that with my scoring chances records…

by Olivier on Jan 12, 2010 1:18 AM EST reply actions  

Another area of data collection inconsistency is shot distance. Some arenas seem hopeless in this regard (hello MSG), so the data on save percentage distribution could be incorrect. But since Boyle collects where all the goals are scored from in video, he can easily chart that number correctly. The shot totals on saves aren’t as accurate, likely, but at least they give a good idea.

I honestly wonder if we should start a email/letter campaign to get the NHL to smarten up and set/enforce standards on statistical collection. Basic things like what qualifies as a shot on goal, hit, blocked shot, giveaway, takeaway, and courses in the rink dimensions could help us better understand the whole of the game a lot. Clearly, as the response to this article suggests, there is a demand for the anlaysis that one can derive from such statistics.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Jan 12, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Montreal Canadiens.
Start posting about the Canadiens »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

2987845178_b30976f7f9_small
Happy Birthday Pierre Turgeon!
2987845178_b30976f7f9_small
Ticket info for the Habs road warrior faithful
Jp_small
Ken Dryden's Comments On Larry Robinson
Hockey_small
Any word on Price's contract talks?
27337_519236873_5263_n_small
Bob Gainey - The Last True Hero
Montcalm2_small
The Price to Pay...
Montcalm2_small
Auld??!?!
Gator_emblem_small
Ole, Ole, Ole, Ole....
Small
Plekanec vs Lombardi

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

PHILADELPHIA - MAY 16:  A fan of the Philadelphia Flyers holds up a sign reading "Next Goalie" behind goalie Carey Price #32 of the Montreal Canadiens in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals during the 2010 NHL Stanley Cup Playoffs at Wachovia Center on May 16, 2010 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.  (Photo by Bruce Bennett/Getty Images)

Habs Finally Lock Up Carey Price, Sign Goalie To Two-Year Deal

National Hockey League commissioner Gary Bettman answers questions during a pre-game media availability before the Pittsburgh Penguins season opener against the New York Rangers in a NHL hockey game in Pittsburgh, Friday, Oct. 2, 2009. (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar) +25 updates

Ultimatum? NHL Reportedly Threatens To Toss Out Kovalchuk, Luongo Deals Without NHLPA Concessions

Photo +1 updates

Report: Donald Fehr Hands NHLPA List Of Conditions On Becoming Union Leader

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

A_new_eotp_logo_small Robert L

Editors

643c0d9c_small saskhab

Small Wamsley

2987845178_b30976f7f9_small yathehabsrule

Butch-montreal__2__-_copie__4__small Francis B.

Small Chris Boyle

Puckworlds-lg_small Bruce Peter

Jp_small Joe Pelletier