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Good Bowman Article - agree with most of it

I liked your Bowman article, I agree with most of it and one of the biggest blunders and few blunders by Pollack was not selecting Bowman as his successor (in my eyes even bigger then not drafting Bossy).

However, I'm not so sure that Bowman would have ripped apart the habs had he succeeded Pollack.

I think Bowman would have stuck with Gainey, Robinson and Lafleur.  he probably would have gotten a much better goalie then the stiffs they had after Dryden retired.  I am positive though that Bowman would have done a much better job then Grundman or Savard in running the habs and that will forever be a blunder that I will never forgive Sam Pollack for.

I think that the Langway, Englom, Jarvis trade ranked just below the Roy fiasco by Houle.   That trade instantly gave Washington some semblance of respectability by providing them with two all-star defencemen and a shut down centre.  How you can trade two fairly young studs on D is beyond me. 

Then of course there was the Wickeniser draft over Savard.  Lafleur probably would have gone on to score 50 goals for another 3-4 years if they drafted Savard.

I think the only decent trade Grundman made was this pickup of Larouche - even though I always thought Larouche was a bum - Larouche reminds me a lot of Richer - loads of talent  but lazy and inconsistent.

If i remember correctly, when Bowman was with the Sabres he tried to pick up Lafleur for Perrault, but Savard didn't want to risk trading Lafleur from a PR perspective.  Which in my eyes was complete stuipidity - sounds much better to alllow the greatest player of the habs dynasty to retire for no return.  I wasn't much of a Perrault fan and would have liked to see the habs pick up somoene else, but some return would have been nice.  Although, in all honesty, if the habs had traded away Lafleur back when I was 13 or 14 years old, I may have stopped cheering for the habs.  As it is, I ended up being a life long habs fan, despite growing up in Western Canada during the heyday of the Oilers/Flames.  However, as a rationale adult - I can see that trading Lafleur was the only sensible thing to do.  heck, even  a year after he had been retired, I had started lamenting that why the heck didn't they trade Lafleur then let him retire without any return!!!

I also seem to remember that the habs (I think it was Savard and not Grundman), had tried to put a package together that was to have included Robinson in an attempt to get the rights to draft #66.  If i remember correctly, Lafleur was also supposed to be part of that offer, but its been a while, so I can't remember for sure.

I will forever hold Grundman responsible for letting the habs fall from being argubly the greatest team of all time, to just another team (just as I'll forever hold the unholy trinity of the bumbling idiots of Corey, Houle and Tremblay for letting the habs sink to the level of the Ballard leafs),  but I also was not a fan of Savard - despite the habs winning two cups during his watch.  However, after the Corey-Houle-Tremblay years, Savard almost seems like a genius. 

I think Habs fan will forever wonder what could have been, had the habs let Bowman take over from Grundman.

In any event, if the Habs could somehow get Bowman back, I think that it would not only help them have the right guy to lead them back to respectibility, it might even help them attract free agents going forward.

 

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I’ll play Devil’s advocate on two of your thoughts – as your opinion is shared by many.

On Langway, he had made it clear that if he was not traded to a US based team that he was going to retire. Grundman took the threat seriously, after having seen not only Bill Nyrop do the same thing, but seeing as how both Dryden and Lemaire turned their backs on the game to focus on their post careers as well. Langway for Green was good, and so was Jarvis for Walter……throwing in Engblom and Laughlin was a bit much, but they were hardly deal breakers. If Pollock would have engineered this trade, a pick would have come Montreal’s way.

On Wickenheiser over Savard, hindsight is everything. 20 other GM’s would have made the same mistake as Wick was a consensus #1 pick. Savard went third, and there were doubbts about his size. In full hindsight, Paul Coffee, chosen 7th, would have been nice.

The Larouche trade yeilded Petr Svoboda. Grundman would have been regarded as a genius of Pollock proportion had it landed Mario Lemieux.

Lafleur for Perreault at that time would have satisfied Canadiens fans. Retiring him and returning nothing, only to see him return, cost the team another asset. All these loses added together amounted to the downslide we are still suffering from.

by Robert L on May 24, 2009 8:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Grundman

Frankly, I thought Grundman’s whole tenure was an unmitigated disaster. From his coaching choices to personel moves.l

In the one good trade he made, I don’t think Grundman was thinking of Lemieux when he met the Larouche trade. I know the habs later made a big push for Lemieux, but unfortunately Pittsburgh did the right thing.

I know that Langway wanted out because of tax reasons, so I’m not questioning trading him, but there had to have been a better deal to be me made then giving Washington 2 cup winning fairly young defencmen. I think if he had made the Langway-Green, Jarvis-Walter trade, it would have been acceptable. I think Grundman made the same mistake as Savard made in 1989 when over the course of a couple of years he stripped the habs strong depth at defence without getting a decent return. After Savard left, to get such a lousy return for Lapointe, Langway and Englom was inexcusable.

Moreover, this past year, I read a Langway interview that sounded like his threats back then were more of a bargaining ploy, so who knows if he had to be traded, in any event, the trade should have been one where the habs didn’t get fleeced.

I thought the same thing when Savard let Robinson, Chelios and Ludwig go without having anyone to mentor the young defencemen that were supposed to replace them. You don’t give up studs on defence like that without it coming back to bite you. If you are going to move them, you better make sure you are getting equal return.

As far as Wickenheiser being the consensus #1, he may have been the rated #1, but. I grow up in Alberta and along with some of the other habs fans I grow up with, we were all hoping the habs were going to take speedy little french kid. We didn’t grow up in Montreal or Quebec (I hadn’t even been outside of Alberta at that point), so for us it wasn’t the hype of taking the home town kid, it was based on what we had read about savard. This was in the pre-internet /TSN age of course, so the only source for decent habs news we had was the Hockey news and going to the public Library to read the previous weeks Montreal Gazette sports section. The main reason for us all liking Savard, was he seemed like the perfect guy to play with #10.

I can’t help but shake my head at what could have been if Grundman had not been the GM of the habs. The same way that I can’t help wonder how Savard let three big defencemen go within a couple of years and of course how the unholy trinity of Corey-Houle-Tremblay reduced the Montreal Canadiens to the stature of the Toronto Maple Leafs – a inconsequential original 6 team that had lost its identity.

If only Pollack had selected Bowman … who knows, we could have still been ahead of the Yankees in the number of championship titles.

by Hab29RETIRED on May 25, 2009 8:43 PM EDT reply actions  

The Larouche deal to Hartford was specifically done in order to have a shot at Lemieux, who was then a 16 year old playing in their backyard in Laval. The hockey world was well aware of Lemieux, already having tagged him as the next Gretzky. Claude Ruel was behind the push to get a high pick in Lemieux’s draft year and that was why the deal was made.

When Wickenheiser was the consensus top pick, he played in the 1980 Memorial Cup against my hometown Royals. Wick was dominant until the final gamem when Dan Daoust threw a blanket over him, and Dale Hawerchuk beat the Pats almost singlehandedly. I remember thinking that Wickenheiser, under pressure, had wilted. As it was just one game, no one paid it much mind, thinking that an 89 goal scorer from the WHL was a sounder risk than a 5’9" center in QMJHL. It’s a big mistake in hindsight, but at the time it wasn’t.

by Robert L on May 26, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree Robert

I don’t believe in making judgements based on hindsight.

I think one needs to judge the conditions at the time of a transaction and make the judgement from there.

Does Savard over Wickenheiser look like a slam dunk now? Damn right, but what did the NHL look like in 1980?
Wayne Gretzky was a rookie, did everybody realize that the league was entering the highest scoring era in history?

Funny how nobody calls out the Jets for taking Dave Babych at #2. What would the 1980s Jets looked like with
a Savard and Hawerchuk going against the Oilers and Flames.

Bowman didn’t exactly turn the Sabres into Cup contenders.

As for talk of letting Chelios/Robinson/Ludwig go without mentoring the future….I don’t recall this being a problem
when Desjardins/Schneider/Brisebois lead the 1993 Habs to a Stanley Cup.

Judgement based on limited information is folly.

During the 1991 draft Pat Falloon was a sure thing and Ray Whitney was a tiny center that would never make it.
How has time altered the perception of that decision?

One needs to analyze the decisions that Bowman made from 1980-84.
Steve Patrick, Mike Moller, Jiri Dudacek, Hannu Virta, Phil Housley, Paul Cyr, Dave Andreychuk, Tom Barrasso, Normand Lacombe, Mikael Andersson, Doug Traap, Ray Sheppard, Calle Johannson, Benout Hogue

or

Doug Wickenheiser, Ric Nattress, Craig Ludwig, Mark Hunter, Chris Chelios, Alain Heroux, Kent Carllson, Alfie Turcotte, Claude Lemieux, Petr Svboda, Shayne Corson, Patrick Roy, Stephane Richer

Would you trade Bowman’s 5 years for the 5 years that happened? Because if you would, the Habs may be working on
the 30th anniversary without a title right now.

www.fantasysensehockey.blogspot.com

by Wamsley on May 31, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

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