Price / Halak - The Stats - November 2009
What a difference a month makes.
Thirty days ago the Canadiens were in the middle of a goaltending controversy. Jaroslav Halak's agent was NITWITTERING Carey Price's won/loss record, the fanbase had placed the bus in reverse and were attempting to leave a fresh set of treadmarks on Price's back and the Canadiens were plodding through their schedule at .500.
Outside of the Canadiens still flirting with the .500 mark, the attitude regarding the goaltending situation has changed dramatically. Since this article is a retrospective on November, it is heavily weighted towards Price. Halak's one start didn't offer enough of a sample to legitimately track his monthly progress. What began as an even split in October, turned into a clear separation as Price started 11 of 12 games in November, almost rendering the title of this article, and its point, moot for at least the time being. A solid performance by Halak in Ottawa suggest that the busy month of December may tell a different story.
Surprised by the turn this has taken, maybe you shouldn't be. This has been typical of the story that Price has written over the first two and a half seasons of his career. Somehow, instead of the fanbase observing the roller coaster ride from afar, recognizing that as the roller coaster descends, a peak exists for it to climb, they jump on the roller coaster eyes closed screaming for dear life on its mad descents only to extol the virtues of the ride when they disembark.
Should Price struggle in February again, it is likely that the fresh imagery that exists in everybody's minds right now will once again dissipate in a mad panic
Panic in Montreal is generally followed by the rewriting OR ignoring of history. Even with Price's strong November this controversy is not over, it will continue to bubble just below the surface. Should Price struggle in January, the detractors who are silent right now will re-emerge with the same arguments, their memories will once again be wiped clean. While the starting goaltender in Montreal is one of the most heavily scrutinized positions in sports, the easiest may be the backup goaltender in Montreal. The backup's flaws are always concealed under the their baseball caps, their past transgressions completely ignored. This will never change.
At Eyes On The Prize, we continue try to look past the surface level blame and analyze what is really going on. This month we will compare Price's performance in November to October and also look back and try to clarify the factors that contribute to a team based stat like a win / loss record and how it relates to Price and Halak.
One of the main arguments against Price in October was his inability to win games. With Halak sporting a 5-2 record and Price at 2-5, the most simplistic argument was "Price doesn't make the big saves when he needs to" and "Halak wins games". That argument ignored plenty of factors, most importantly that wins are a team based stat.
While perusing the internet I came across an interesting perspective at Brodeur is a Fraud. While trying to debunk the myth of Brodeur's career, he came up with an interesting statistic that he refers to as Win Threshold. It essentially projects out what a goaltender would have had to do to earn a point (.500) by including the teams performance in front of him. In a 3-1 victory, the assumption would be that to earn a point the goaltender would have to allow no more than 3 goals. Inversely, in a 3-1 loss the goaltender would need to have allowed no more than 1 goal.
We can calculate what I'll call the "win threshold" for the goalies on each team by taking (shots against - goals for) / shots against. This gives us the save percentage that would result in the team ending up with an equal number of goals for and goals against over the course of the season. If the goalie's save percentage is above that number, the team is likely to win more than the lose, while anything below the threshold means that the team should end up sub -.500 (or sub -.550 in the shootout era).
This simple statistic beautifully illustrates the career of Chris Osgood AND his playoff run that allowed the media to begin the "Chris Osgood is a Hall of Famer" nonsense.
In 2008-09, Detroit's win threshold was .873, which was the lowest in the league. The Islanders' win threshold was .928, which was not only the highest mark in the league but also the highest of any team since the lockout......Naturally, comparing win totals on goalies playing on the Islanders to goalies playing on the Red Wings is completely senseless.
Using this as a starting point, I compared how this statistic affected goalies on the same team. Was the Canadiens offense responsible for Halak's inflated win total, or was it his superior goaltending? What would Price have had to do to compensate for the woeful offense in front of him? Was it that Halak was receiving an easier ride?
(Let me preface this by stating that this is judging wins and wins alone. If a goaltender was fantastic and had a .960 SV%, but only needed to produce a .895 SV%, it is not devaluing his performance, only stating that his margin for error was very high. I also understand that early saves can keep a team in a period. Teams play to the score and loosen up when they are up big and that some goals are scored late in a game and alter the margin for the threshold. It is obvious that providing replacement value will never replicate the actual performance that history has provided. This theory is being used only to illustrate that wins are a team statistic and that they are heavily influenced by not only what you save, but what offense your team provides).
To put this in perspective, the league average in save percentage is .910.
In order for Price to gain the majority of his wins, he has had to offer above average goaltending.
His margin for error was slim and when he failed to balance on the high wire, he was open to criticism.
A .915 save percentage is currently good to place 20th in the league.
Halak on the other hand was allowed to navigate with a greater margin of error. He only needed to offer a save percentage of .865 to register his 5 victories. Vesa Toskala's save percentage on the season is .863. So any goaltender slightly more competent than Toskala MAY have registered a similar number of victories as Halak.
Both goaltenders would have had to provide Hall of Fame type performances to avoid the majority of their losses.
How would those statistics translate if you offered up average replacement value? If Jimmy Howard and his .910 SV% replaced Price and Halak, the Canadiens would be in deep trouble. The Canadiens would likely be in the hunt for Taylor Hall, not talking about the importance of their December schedule.
Looking at Price's losses below, it is unlikely that an average goaltender makes any impact on his losses, hell, it's unlikely that Roberto Luongo would have made much of a difference.
Price's threshold in his 11 losses is a SV% of 0.944 and a GAA of 1.69. Numbers that would place him above Ryan Miller as the number one goaltender in the league. Six of those starts would have required a .940+ SV% just to procure a shootout. If the team continues to struggle offensively to this capacity, then it is going to require Jose Theodore 2002 MVP type performances to drag them into the playoffs. With Price and Halak entering their RFA season, THAT is a scary and expensive thought.
You would think with Halak's lack of activity in November, that his stat line would remain unchanged, but with only an 8 game sample, one strong start against the Flames resulted in an 11 point improvement on his save percentage and lopping 1/5th of a goal off his goals against average. In October, Price statistically lagged behind in all the major categories, but with a strong month has lessened the paper gap between himself and Halak. I made the argument in October that Price had a higher ceiling, but was prone to wild swings of inconsistency and the 2009 season has proven that out so far.
Through two months, what has been proven, is that the Canadiens goaltending is in good hands. With the transition of turning over half the team, and the numerous injuries to key personnel, the fact the team came through November at .500 is miraculous. At this moment, Halak's consistency offers the perfect compliment to Price, but due to the idiotic actions of his agent (Halak, Halak it a lot?), it is clear that Halak is eyeing a starting assignment, and will not likely find that in Montreal. You may be reading "Price / Sanford: the numbers" by March December. (note: as I am writing this, Sportsnet has reported that Halak has been placed on the trading block).
The fact that I can even mention a 2002 Theodore-like season is based on the strong November showing by Price. Playing behind an injury ravaged defense that produced roughly the same amount of shots as the previous month, from roughly the same areas, Price's numbers improved across the board. Price also managed to avoid a major meltdown like the Vancouver game, as well as producing a couple of 40+ shot gems against the Bruins and Predators.
With Halak pushing Price for the starting job in October, by all accounts Price responded to the challenge with hard work, which resulted in plenty of positive signs over the last month. With hard work Price's confidence level soared and his return to a hybrid style has allowed his athleticism to re-surface, because of this, Price managed to produce some miraculous saves during November. His patience has also been on display, particularly in shootouts and breakaways where once again he is using his huge frame to his advantage and refusing to commit before the shooter. With his gap control improving, he has been extremely hard to beat in 1 on 1 situations. This is a huge improvement on the tentative approach he used in late 2008-09. Add in his aggressive puck handling and his tenacity in battling to track the puck and the hope in Montreal is that Price has begun turning the corner.
Price's save percentage's also improved in almost every category in November, with his biggest improvement coming in shorthanded situations where his save percentage improved by over .200. His woefully low special teams percentage in October masked the fact that he was producing an elite level even strength percentage. With an improvement to mediocre powerplay standards, Price's statistics all experienced a significant jump across the board.
The question remains, what came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the Canadiens penalty kill improve in November because of Price, or did Price's numbers improve because of the penalty kill? Halak did not suffer the same special teams meltdown. Could that have had anything to do with the power of the opposition, or his own play?
With so many new faces and the loss of Markov, it is no surprise that the PK got off to a slow start. With the return of O'Byrne and Gill and the emergence of White and Pyatt, the October implosion by Price should be avoidable moving forward.
Interesting to note if Price had managed to produce an .878 powerplay SV% in October, his overall SV% would have improved from .889 to .920.
Price and Halak continue to get bombarded by shots and the Canadiens have once again regressed into becoming over reliant on goaltending to win hockey games. With the early season injury to the Canadiens best player (Markov in 2010, Koivu in 2002) and the continual 30+ shot barrages, this season is becoming eerily reminiscent of the 2002 season when Theodore needed to provide the difference every night.
With Price's numbers improving in November, the assumption would be that the Canadiens settled down and began to limit shots and scoring opportunities. The Canadiens actually surrendered an extra two shot attempts per game. Price still is averaging over a shot attempt against per minute on the ice, a trend that will either lead to a statistical regression or an MVP award.
In 8 of his 11 starts in November, Price faced 30+ shots, including a team record tying 53 saves against the Predators and a 42 save gem that was seconds short of his 1st shutout of the season. Only once in his 11 games did he have less than 50 shots directed at him. Price continued to excel on shots outside of 20+ feet as he only allowed 7 of 257 shots to beat him. His SV% below 20' feet drastically improved and is pushing towards the league average.
Price offered up plenty of spectacular saves in November, but also had some concentration lapses that resulted in some questionable goals, something that had been absent from his game in October (only 5 of 25 came in as questionable, with zero registering at fault). Although his statistics drastically improved over the month of November, with the Canadiens lack of scoring ability (25th in the NHL) and his unbelievably tough win threshold (see above), his margin for error was slim. This can be witnessed by his 0-4 record in the 4 games I credited a bad goal. In two of the games (Detroit and Atlanta) the margin of victory was one goal, the other two (Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh) were decided by two goals. As he matures, these goals should occur less frequently allowing him to become even more of a game changing player. He isn't yet ready to carry a team, but it seems the Canadiens have given him little to no choice in the matter presently.
Looking at the zones where Price has given up goals, his glove hand continues to be much maligned even though he has only been beaten high glove side 11 times through November (11/53). The reason for the questions lies in the amount of bad goals high glove side. Out of the 12 goals categorized as suspect or bad, 6 have been high glove side, making it much easier to understand AND defend the criticism.
Looking at his November chart also gives the impression that he is very vulnerable low stick side, but looking at the video below shows that a lot of those goals came as the result of cross ice passes in which Price was not able to square up and were the result of him in transition. A small concern for me through two months has been his vulnerability through the 5-hole, an area he has not been able to cover with his stick either in transition or static and squared up.
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Goals deemed questionable or bad are marked in bold.
26. Rich Peverley feeds it in front and it deflects off Bryan Little by a moving Price beating him 5-hole. 10 ft.
27. Pass from behind the net to a wide open Peverley in the slot, snaps a shot by Price low-stick side. 14 ft
28. Point shot by Mark Popovic that knuckles by Carey Price beating him high glove side. 59 ft.
29. 5 on 4 PP. Cross crease feed to a wide-open Pavel Kubina who directs it pass Price into an empty net. 5 ft.
30. Kane cross crease pass to a wide open Colby Armstrong who beats Price low stick side. 8 ft.
31. 6 on 5. Point shot. Price makes the initial stop, Patrice Bergeron rebound beats Price low-stick side. 5 ft.
32. 5 on 4 PP. Scramble. Price makes 2 saves but cannot stop Ryan Malone as he beats him five-hole. 11 ft.
33. Price, big rebound and Alex Tanguay alone, chips it over Price beating him high glove side. 14 ft.
34. 2 on 1. Scramble. Wright beats Gorges to the puck and slides it into an empty net. 6 ft.
35. Price highsticked in the throat by Mara falls down leaving an open net. Robert Lang puts it top shelf. 15 ft.
36. Point shot wide deflects into an open net off Bissonnette's skate beating Price low glove side. 12 ft.
37. Price makes initial save, Steve Sullivan all alone finishes off his rebound beating Price 5-hole. 7 ft
38. 5 on 3 PP. Point shot stopped, Sullivan at the side of the net beats Price low stick side. 14 ft.
39. Odd man rush, cross ice feed to the slot. Brandon Sutter chips it over Price, high glove side. 14 ft.
40. 3 one 2, cross ice feed one timed by Jussi Jokinen beats Price low glove side. 32 ft.
41. Eric Fehr snaps a shot from the face-off dot beating Price high-glove side. 25 ft.
42. Morrison takes a pass in front and moves opposite to Price's momentum beating him low glove side. 6 ft.
43. 5 on 4 PP. Brad Stuart point shot handcuffs Price and trickles in. 55 ft.
44. 5 on 3 PP. Brian Rafalski point pass tipped home by Pavel Datsyuk at the side of the net. 12 ft. 45. Nash behind the net finds Vermette who one-times it past Price beating him high blocker side. 11 ft.
46. 5 on 4 PP. Rick Nash centers it, Stralman cheating off the point beats Price low blocker side. 24 ft.
47. 5 on 4 PP. Antoine Vermette's shot stopped, rebound back to him, beats Price low blocker side. 20 ft.
48. Sidney Crosby snap shot from the top of the faceoff circle beating Price high glove side. 38 ft.
49. Bill Guerin from the corner. Price makes initial save, doesn't hold the post as he beats him 5-hole. 8 ft.
50. Crosby with a beautiful pass to a streaking Sergei Gonchar who beats Price 5-hole all alone. 8 ft.
51. Point shot deflected in front by Brooks Laich beats Price low blocker side. 18 ft.
52. Alex Ovechkin one timer from the top of the faceoff circle beats Price low blocker side. 38 ft.
53. 6 on 4 PP. Price stops a one-timer by Ovechkin, Fehr slides home the rebound beating Price 5-hole. 10 ft.
The November verdict: You have to be encouraged by the performance of Price and Halak through November and the improved penalty kill is a positive sign and a factor in Price's improved numbers. The volume of shots and scoring opportunities remain a major concern. In October I preached patience because of the integration of 10-12 players and the introduction of a new system. With injuries creating a revolving door of players it is likely that this team has still not properly gelled. The Canadiens have fallen into a pattern of struggling to produce offense and relying on Price and Halak to bail them out, and this is a dangerous game to play with developing goaltenders. They have been able to provide some fantastic results through November, but if this continues they will struggle to make the playoffs. To provide room for improvement moving forward, the goaltenders get a B+ for November.
To view the October Price / Halak analysis, click here.
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Last Night
The win threshold was in full display last night as one mistake by Price resulted in a loss.
A .927 SV% was not good enough, Price would have had to produce a .951 to get a tie and a .976 to register a victory. His margin of error is essentially zero.
Moreover — Montreal has gone from a team that used to outchance and outshoot teams to a team relying on the patented “hope our goalie save our asses and their goalie sucks” system. That the Habs have had any success at all with this stragegy speaks highly to the awesome performance of the goaltenders… but does not bode well for the team or its coaching staff, as the team’s overall level of play is in steady decline.
Yep
Apparently I sat through a 7 year rebuild to watch a team with limited talent and a young goaltender who needs to play like a combination of Patrick Roy, Jacques Plante and Ken Dryden just to get to OT.
This is 2002 all over again. I have never seen a team regress so quickly in 18 months.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Actually — and this is what has me really worried — the earlier 2009-2010 was better. They were a .500 team, but they were a .500 team that would outplay and outshoot opponents but couldn’t buy a goal. I was extremely encouraged even with the Habs in a 5-game losing streak because the Habs were doing the right things, outplaying and outshooting at 5-on-5, and getting tons of chances.
We don’t see that anymore. We’re back to 2002, or 2006-2007 as the case may be. This used to be a good team on a bad shooting streak, now it’s a bad team on a good shooting streak.
The team has been regressing this year. Frankly, I’m worried that the problem is coaching. It’s not a personnel problem, the same team with the same injuries has been better before. The transition and puck possession game has completely gone away despite having the same personnel… and why do I suspect Martin’s extreme allergy to turnovers discouraging any kind of transition pass from being a major culprit?
I really, really hope that he has some sort of transition scheme and it just has a steep learning curve, and that the system doesn’t involve simply chipping the puck out all the time. Surely, he must realize he cannot expect his team to shoot more unless they have the puck more.
Come to think of it, Olivier has a fantastic chart illustrating my point:
http://enattendantlesnordiques.blogspot.com/2009/12/je-ne-suis-pas-pessimiste-mais.html
Good point
I was skeptical about Martin when I studied his work with the Panthers, plenty of sit back and allow Luongo to save the game.
I
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
That’s what happened in Florida, but he didn’t have the horses he has now with the Habs. (He had Bouwmeester, but after that…)
And bad transition wasn’t exactly a trademark of his Ottawa teams, so I’m really puzzled by this state of affairs. Maybe Martin has them concentrating on coverage because it was so deficient, but now it’s fantastic. Time to get back to the transition game.
Well, it’s not the exact same personnel. November the Habs had more severe injury issues than October. Only now have they started to get bodies back. There were a few games in late November where half the team’s payroll was essentially unavailable to play.
October’s injuries included Markov (every game but 1), Hamrlik (for the 1 game Markov was gone), O’Byrne every game but 2 (#6/7 D), Metropolit for 6 games (#3 C), Chipchura for 2 (#4/5 C), and Laraque and D’Agostini for a couple games at the end of the month (4th liners). November saw Gill gone for the entirety (which made the O’Byrne absence worse), Gionta for the end of the month, Gomez for a few games, and then the self inflicted injury issue of trading Latendresse for Pouliot. Plus Spacek even missed a couple at the end.
The November lineup was worse than the October one. It’s not an excuse that should lead to the MASSIVE difference, but the injuries are a definite factor. Clearly, the Habs don’t have the depth they thought they had.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
Well, let’s be fair. It’s not that the Habs don’t have the depth they thought they had, it’s just that if you lop off 25 million off the top of a roster, there’s not a team in the league that’s not going to see a significant dip in performance.
Take two top forwards and two top D-men from any roster in the league, and take away a couple more of their D-men and a depth forward or two for good measure, and see if you can really claim that roster will do well.
My problem is that they’re back to more or less the same roster as the beginning of the season, and they’re still getting shelled. Surely the loss of Gionta and the foolish trade of Latendresse can’t have resulted in that much of a dip?
Gionta is a significant piece in comparison to October (we’ll say Markov + O’Byrne = Markov + Mara). And I guess we’ll see. We have to see growth in that shot (and penalty) differential going forward if the team can continue to improve health wise through December. November was just a bad situation in general… December has barely started, and certainly things like the Ottawa game are more anomolies than realities: it was a back to back situation, Spacek was gone for 2 periods, they had a forward pulled from the game, and had in game injuries to two other forwards (Pacioretty, Sergei). They spent nearly half the last two periods on the PK.
That game followed two games against average opposition in Boston and Philly where the shot differential was pretty much even, and they won both of them without much worry. Pittsburgh is better than us. We know that, but we have to improve on that differential regardless.
I wouldn’t say the team is in an in season regression mode… we just haven’t had a chance to see what the problem is: injuries or the system.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
Settle down
What happened to the adherent of the roller coaster? The team scoring also goes in waves. They just need to put Halak in, and then they’ll light it up just so his winning threshold can make his job look even easier…
As for settling down
I haven’t liked Gainey’s moves since July 1st.
I fear the ramifications this July and I have not been on board with direction he took the team.
So I am not on a roller coaster. I have remained steadfast in my criticism. I have been fairly critical of this team for 6 months now.
Even in regards to the goaltending, I didn’t rip Price pre-season, I didn’t rip him in October and I continue to view him as what he is. A work in progress.
I would love to be 100% wrong about what is going on and maybe Markov’s return will prove just that, but right now my worst fears have been realized through 30+ games.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Your worst fears were that a team without Markov would be 0.500 in December? You live a charmed life my friend.
And as for being consistent, I don’t think that’s relevant for the rollercoaster. As you note, Price bashers are consistent, just quiet right now. You happen o have written this after a string of games where we get outshot, yet win thanks to goaltending, so are piping up. Seems the same to me.
choose to look at it any way you want
This is smoke and mirrors.
An 8-2 record in OT
Second in the league in minor penalties, yet 10th in penalty killing.
Being outshot on a nightly basis (1010/873) and relying on your goaltenders
I don’t expect these things to continue with positive results. When these things begin to regress to the norm, my expectation is that Markov and Gionta will make up for this and probably leave the Habs fighting for 8th place.
8th place is not good enough for me. When a team wins the conference after a 5-year rebuild and two years later the goal has been dropped to struggling for 8th, it isn’t good enough for me and I am not satisfied with that.
If you are, good for you.
As for the rollercoaster, that wasn’t aimed at the bashers, it was aimed at those in the middle who drive the hyperbole. You will always have your defenders, you will always have your detractors, but the buzz and talk is based around the middle ground. They are the ones who swing the momentum, they are the ones that fuel the fire. THEY are the majority who drives the media bus.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
One major problem I have with the “smoke and mirrors” theory is that they were an outshooting team back when they accumulated that crazy 8-0 OT record.
Their overtime luck masked their bad luck with shooting. It took twenty-four shots for Cammalleri to score his first goal. These days he seems to be putting one in every three shots. He’s just the most extreme example.
This team has the talent to be much better than that in transition and puck possession, and has shown it earlier this year. I don’t know why they stopped, but whatever they did that caused it, I don’t think it was a good idea.
Once again, good points.
I meant smoke and mirrors in that they will need to continue these trends of outstanding goaltending, penatly killing and an abnormal OT record to rise above a team battling for 8th.
I hope this is just a temporary regression in regards to their early season work, but I don’t like the trend I am seeing because I have seen it before.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
A dip was unavoidable when they had 20-25 millions worth of Markov, Gionta, Spacek and Gomez out of the lineup, but they haven’t recovered since. Either a lot of Habs are still playing with injuries (‘ello, Jaroslav and Scott!) or they haven’t gotten out of their hang-on-for-dear-life mode they went into to deal with the craptastic injury luck… or both.
The fact that Gionta, Gomez and Spacek make up $16M is part of my problem with this team :)
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
The only problem with this is Gomez, who is definitely a couple million overpaid. He’s also underperforming in terms of point production relative to his usual (he’s usually pretty good 5-on-5), which makes it even worse. He’s usually a puck possession ace and showed it earlier in the year, but the current transition system has him getting shelled along with the rest of the team, which makes it even worse over the points deficit. And then, as if that weren’t enough, the refs take goals away from him. Nothing’s going his way these days.
Spacek’s salary is fine, even good; the guy is playing Markov minutes on his wrong side while injured and doing so with aplomb, I don’t have any complaints at all. I think this was one of Gainey’s shrewdest signings, and it could look better with a healthy roster. It’s just that with Markov’s injury he ended up not being an addition so much as a stopgap measure to replace his skills, and while he’s good he’s not Markov. If the Habs did not have Spacek, they would be dead right now.
I didn’t like Gionta’s signing at first, but if Kovalev is worth 5 million so is he. More productive 5-on-5, more versatile, and a high-energy player. If there’s fat in that contract, there’s not a lot.
I’d rather have kept Tanguay, but that seems to make me crazy.
My problem isn't with the players individually per se
It is with the upcoming problems that will arise with Price and Plekanec.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
The Gomez contract essentially means you can’t overpay anyone else in order to compete with the best, so it’s a legitimate concern.
I don’t like the set up of the deals, when they come off the books and such. All 3 forwards come off in 5 years, Hamrlik, Markov, Kostitsyn, Gill and Laraque in 2 years (now 1 1/2, I guess); Plekanec, Price and Mara this year. Spacek and Moen in 3 years.
It’s not an easy situation to manage.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
Gainey is going to have to be creative, something he has failed to show. That being said, desperation can lead to creativity.
It is unfortunate that Gainey put his ass and reputation on the line with his moves this summer only to lose Markov in the first game of the season. Add in all the other injuries and we may never see the full result of his experiment until it is too late.
Price has a significant cap hit because he’s on a rookie deal. I doubt he makes much more than the 2.5 million of his current cap hit over a year just yet, as a RFA with no arbitration rights.
Plekanec is certainly a potential problem, and I’m curious to see how much he will be paid. I fully expect him to be re-signed before the end of the year… although I think there is a chance he will be dealt.
Price’s cap hit is $2.2M
Plekanec’s hit is $2.75M
If Price gets $5M and Plekanec $4M, the Habs are adding $4M+ to their cap hit without making any significant improvement on their current roster.
Price at 5M? I can’t picture anything near that on his first RFA contract unless he somehow wins a Vezina — and even then.
Fleury makes 5M. Bryzgalov makes 4.25M. Those were all deals that buy UFA years and I don’t think Price’s deal will do that.
I don’t see Price making much more than 3M, maybe 4M if he has a really good year.
Why wouldn’t Gainey want to buy UFA years?
No way Price only gets an 800k raise if he continues to play the way he is. Even if it is $4M, you are still looking at cap issues and that doesn’t even factor in him progressing even further and possibly getting a bigger contract then $5M down the road when his UFA years get closer. A mistake Gainey continues to repeat.
The future of this team is tied to Price, if they don’t buy up UFA year this off-season, wow, I give up.
Because Price only has 3 years of service, and won’t be UFA for four more years. If Gainey does buy UFA years from Price, that will mean a very long-term contract, five years plus. Even if he goes that route that means 1-2 years of UFA, not the majority of the contract like Fleury and Bryzgalov’s at this point. Unless we want to look at a 10-year contract or something.
Price is making 850k right now. The rest is in bonuses and he’s not hitting all of them. Even if they give him the same cap hit in real money, it is a raise — I’m not sure how many rookie bonuses he’s hitting so I’m not sure what amount it would be, but I figure going to 3M in guaranteed money about doubles his take-home salary.
I think a strategy of giving Price a reasonable 3-year contract, then signing him to a long-term contract while he’s in his last year of RFA eligibility, is a sound strategy with him. That will mean Price will only start becoming a big cap hit when guys like Hamrlik come off the cap, with the Little Big Three only a couple years away from coming up for renewal.
Because Price only has 3 years of service, and won’t be UFA for four more years. If Gainey does buy UFA years from Price, that will mean a very long-term contract, five years plus. Even if he goes that route that means 1-2 years of UFA, not the majority of the contract like Fleury and Bryzgalov’s at this point. Unless we want to look at a 10-year contract or something.
Price is making 850k right now. The rest is in bonuses and he’s not hitting all of them. Even if they give him the same cap hit in real money, it is a raise — I’m not sure how many rookie bonuses he’s hitting so I’m not sure what amount it would be, but I figure going to 3M in guaranteed money about doubles his take-home salary.
I think a strategy of giving Price a reasonable 3-year contract, then signing him to a long-term contract while he’s in his last year of RFA eligibility, is a sound strategy with him. That will mean Price will only start becoming a big cap hit when guys like Hamrlik come off the cap, with the Little Big Three only a couple years away from coming up for renewal.
Unfortunately that may be the only option now.
Once again, part of my irritation with the Gainey regime is the long-term investment in outside talent through free-agency, but lack of year to year investment in his own talent.
Because of the bloated contracts he signed this off-season, he will not be in the position to offer up a long-term deal to his future franchise player.
Signing Price for a 7 year $35M contract right now (Fleury’s as a comparable) is an investment in the future. It would buy out the first 3 years of his UFA status when he may far exceed that worth and settle your goaltending concerns until he is 30.
And LOL at the Gomez comment.
They don’t need to sign Price to a 7 year 35 M contract now and he doesn’t justify it yet anyway.
They can sign him to that contract in 3 years, after they bought 3 of his RFA years for say 3 M apiece. At the end of that contract he’d still be a RFA and that 7 year contract would be much more appropriate.
This results in the Habs retaining Price for longer and spending less money and cap space to do so.
This is, incidentally, not unlike what happened with Fleury. They re-signed him to a 2-year RFA contract before they gave him the big long-term deal.
I think I see what you’re getting at, but in the case of Price, because he is not even out of his rookie deal, I think you’re going too fast. He has 4 more years of RFA coming and the Habs ought to use that as much as they can.
What player really has justified these contracts outside of Crosby and Ovechkin?
Staal, Kessel, Kopitar, Stastny, Green, Weber have all been awarded contracts they have not earned. They are attempts at value buys before they mature.
Ulitmately, the way Gainey has handled his RFAs since the lockout has shaken my confidence in his ability to read the market properly. So out of fear, I would like to see him lock up Price, so he doesn’t eff that up as well.
When I had confidence in him, I likely would have been trumpeting the exact approach you suggest here. That was the whole purpose and advantage of the new CBA, but once again GMs have found a way to prematurely escalate salaries.
So realistically, I am concerned that Gainey could screw this up and would like closure before he can. If that makes sense.
Lundqvist
The solution for Price may be what the Rangers did for Lundqvist: they gave him a 1 year deal before signing a long term deal due to a cap crunch. If they can get him to buy into this, they could hold off on the big money until Hamrlik’s contract comes off the books.
That’s the kind of creativity Gainey might need to get out of this. Oddly enough, that desperation of the Rangers was caused partly by the same Gomez contract we have now.
Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.
Thoughts on Montreal scorer
Some people around the league believe the Montreal scorekeeper to be very generous with what is designated a hit, a blocked shot, a giveaway. Given it’s the same person, do you think this extends to shots? If so, what implication do you think this has on the save %?
Montreal is far from the worst offender
http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=351
They sit somewhere in the middle, and with the luck based around 140 and the expectation that a team at home plays better, or has an advantage, Montreal’s 148 doesn’t indicate much bias.
The Nashville number stood out, and a reason I mentioned it during Price’s 55 shot barrage.
by Chris Boyle on Dec 11, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
What really frightens me with that team is that maybe, just maybe the league has adjusted to them quickly: forecheck agressively for 2 of their 3 D pairings can’t hit the breakout pass for all the money in the world. In doing so, you press the C into getting back and trying to leg it out all by himself. We were getting good shot differentials in the first few weeks because opposing teams still defended against the breakout pass and thus afforded Plekanec and, more importantly, Gomez enough space and time to turn on the afterburners before hitting the middle of the ice.
Add 15+ ES minutes of a good passer into the bottom 4 D mix (Hamrlik, Spacek or even Markov if you want to keep the Czechs together and give O’Byrne a chance to grow into Komisarek’s old role) and it’s already a wholly different story. I guess Gorges could do some good if he wasn’t paired with Gill (who is a strict D-Zone specialist), but these two do a hell of a job together, Martin can’t split them right now…
I guess MAB was supposed to be that man, but obviously he isn’t suited for such a role (playing D at even strength, that is…)
I hope you’re right Olivier, and admittedly I’ve always felt that #1 D-men were the most important players on any team and teams that went minus theirs were all but dead teams skating. Can one guy make that much difference, even if that one guy is Andrei Markov?
With Markov going on the Habs’ road trip, we may soon get to find out.
If you have ever played goal it becomes shockingly apparent how important a player like Markov is. Standing in the crease, you can’t help but notice how a great quarterback can slice apart a defense and create offense through his first pass.
He was probably the player they could least afford to lose. He will boost the offense, but will his return be able to cover all the rest of their deficincies? I don’t think so.
I think Markov’s biggest impact is trough the ousting of Bergeron and Mara from regular D work. It seems (but I don’t have data with enough granularity to verify this right now) Martin is currently using his 3 pairings thusly: Spacek and Hamrlik are the big shutdown pair, they go up against the toughest opposition as often as possible and also get to play behind the 4th/weakest line to avoid complete collapse. Gorges and Gill are the defensive zone backups. Interestingly, O’Byrne seems to be shoehorned into a D-Zone specialist role too. According to Behindthenet.ca, Spacek takes 0,7 Offensive zone faceoffs for 1 defensive zone faceoff, Hamr, Gill and Gorges are around 0.85, O’Byrne is 0.7 in limited time. Mara is at 1.1 and Bergeron a whopping 1.28; and yet, MAB is only middle of the pack Corsi-wise, and Mara is at the back… I sincerely hope the habs are truly able to convince MAB to channel the spirit of Mark Streit.
Oh, and Cyberpresse is announcing Markov will travel with the team to Atlanta and may be back dec. 20th (his birthday). Wild speculation but if we can get him before the end of December, well praise Jeebus!
+ the Komisarek effect
Whoever he plays with will be ultimately improved, so they essentially add another quality defenseman to the mix.
True, but I’m really curious to see what Markov could do with a partner he doesn’t need to babysit. That was one intriguing aspect of the Spacek signing — the idea of a partner with enough puck skills that Markov didn’t have to carry him.
I tought highly of a Gorges-Markov pairing before training camp, but Spacek-Markov was intriguing too. Hamrlik and O’Byrne have some history together, and again I guess they won’t want to futz with Gill-Gorges.
It really leaves Mara out in the cold, tough.
Methinks MAB will play at forward if they ask him to. The guy knows he would be out of a job if Markov hadn’t been hurt, and he knows his place on the depth chart, I’m sure. He is just not as good a D-man as Streit and doesn’t have the international credentials, and I think he knows this.
Being a swingman might well extend his career, which looked in peril at the start October, and at 750k/year, that’s a pretty nice monetary investment. I wouldn’t be averse to the Habs re-signing him in a forward/PP cannon/spot duty D-man for that money. Streit has already shown how useful 4th-liners with puck skills could be.
I can whine and argue about Corsi and ZoneStarts and whatnot until I’m blue in the face, but the fact remains that points (not even strength points, points as in points as in points.) are a very powerful definer of a player’s value. Bergeron is already brushing with the top-30 amongst D-Men for points with 14 in 25, and is a career 0.5 PPG player.
Spoon-fed by Markov on the PP? Over the course of a season, I’d be curious to see how many points he’d rack up…
I hope you’re right Olivier, and admittedly I’ve always felt that #1 D-men were the most important players on any team and teams that went minus theirs were all but dead teams skating. Can one guy make that much difference, even if that one guy is Andrei Markov?
With Markov going on the Habs’ road trip, we may soon get to find out.
Nice Job
This might be the most comprehensive article on a goalie I have ever seen. I have never seen anyone de-construct (and I do not mean that in a negative way at all) a goalie before…

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