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Around SBN: News And Other Updates Leading Up To Pats-Giants

Price / Halak - The Stats - October 2009

Price_halak_oct09_medium

Entering the 2009 season the Canadiens franchise had plenty of unanswered questions. The goaltending question is an eternal one in Montreal and with both Price and Halak entering RFA years, 2009 should offer no reprieve. Late 2009 has mimicked early 2009 as inconsistency has plagued Carey Price. Jaroslav Halak although solid on nights, has also not taken the opportunity presented to him by Jacques Martin and cemented the number one job.

With neither goalie grabbing the hammer, the majority of fans have aligned themselves on one side or the other. I refer to them as Team Price and Team Halak. Both teams seemingly rise and fall with each performance. Both teams rally to attack one side should they falter and boast and offer, "I told you so's" when they excel. The 2009 campaign got off to a rousing start for Team Price as he opened the season 2-0 and was outstanding leading the Canadiens to a 2-0 start despite being out shot 81-44 and having 148 shots directed at him in 128 minutes. When Halak faltered in Calgary, the attacks on Halak and the management team for not starting Price were loud. Then Price was bombed in Vancouver and after Price lost 3 straight the controversy was back and Halak was awarded another start. Team Halak struck back. Halak offered up two strong starts in a row and Team Halak was now mounting their high horse. After 14 goals in 229 minutes the lines had once again become blurred. So what has changed?

Pricevshalak_oct_stats_medium

Not much. Both goaltenders continue to fail to elevate themselves from an approaching platoon. Price and Halak have almost identical save percentages, while Halak holds the edge in goals against average. Halak also has a superior record at 5-2, but it has been accrued against inferior opposition as his opponents winning percentage is .545 (25-20-10) while Price's 2-5 record was accrued against a .650 opponents winning percentage (25-13-3).

Note: records reflect the team record when the goaltender faced them. I did not reference the Islanders as 5-4-5, but as 1-3-3 (their record when Halak faced them on Oct 22 and 1-4-4, their record on Oct 26). It would be disingenuous should Atlanta slow down to reference an under .500 record in April when they were hot and 4-1-0 entering Montreal on Oct 20.)

I used the Roy/Hayward duel as an analogy before the season, but I do not remember really caring who played in 1988, just that I hoped the Canadiens would win. This recent controversy has taken on a life of it's own. I get the feeling that some fans have begun to put their personal vindication of their opinions above the success of the team. It is why I refer to the divide amongst Canadiens fans as different teams. It is utterly exasperating because to this point it is the equivalent to arguing who is crazier, Amy Winehouse or Courtney Love? They are both batshit crazy.

I have gone over EVERY goal in October and 80% of them were unstoppable, they have both let in some suspect goals, but none more so than the other. Neither has significantly outplayed the other. One seems to be the Tortoise, one seems to be the Hare. Price at his peak has been dominant (Maple Leafs, Sabres, Blackhawks), but he has a tendency to nap and crash back to reality (Canucks), while Halak goes out, saves the pucks he should (Thrashers, Islanders), doesn't stop the ones he shouldn't (Flames, Penguins, Rangers) and offers a steady compliment. At the end of the day, their statistics are not that different. It was the same story last season. The goaltending is NOT the problem, it is the easy scapegoat. It is the simple corollary.

My opinion? If this team was a legit contender I could understand the cry for consistency and the Halak argument, but with a team that looks to be middle of the pack I would ride out the inconsistencies of the goaltender with the higher ceiling. The fanbase seems to have settled on goaltending as it's scapegoat and is happy to ignore the lack of secondary scoring, abysmal defensive zone coverages and atrocious special teams. The goaltending is but a symptom of a greater issue; targeting the symptom of anemia by drinking 5 red bulls a day does nothing to cure lymphoma. As each issue is addressed individually, the goaltending will miraculously improve.

For those who want to jump to emotional conclusions, this is probably not the article for you. I don't believe in simplistic judgments based on flawed statistical categories, so I have pieced together as many statistics I could for you to make your own judgments. I have tracked every goal. I have tracked where the shots are coming from, how many are blocked, how many are wide, where they are being scored from on the ice, where they are being scored on the goaltender, even strength, powerplay and save percentage from each distance. My intent is to track these things all season and give you a comprehensive month to month look and offer a comparable for Price and Halak, as well as eventually a comparison to their league leading peers.

I avoided statistical manipulation, there is no "remove the seven goals Price gave up against the Canucks and his SV% is.....". If you chose to ignore the winning percentage of the teams faced to make your argument, so be it. If you want to ignore the video evidence of each individual goal, be my guest. I have provided as much information possible in one place and hopefully through this research and presentation, Eyes on the Prize will be able to offer you a more rounded look for you to form your opinions.

SHOTS AGAINST

Pricevshalak_oct_shots_medium 

Price and Halak's statistical achilles heel is that they play behind a porous Montreal defense. A defense in transition and minus its best player, struggled in October to limit shot attempts. Beginning with the season opener when the Leafs directed 92 shots at the Montreal goal (46 shots, 21 missed shots and 25 blocked shots) Price and Halak have been faced with a consistent barrage.  Price has been facing almost a shot attempt per minute on the ice (412 shot attempts in 436 minutes). Compare that to Tim Thomas who has faced 444 shots attempts in 542 minutes or Martin Brodeur who has faced 502 in 672 minutes.

The basic assumption behind these charts is the closer the shot to the net, the more likelihood of it resulting in a goal. The short charts below would reinforce this assumption as the majority of goals given up by Halak and Price increase the closer they move towards the goal and their save percentage also declines with each one.

 Shotsperzone_price_medium

Sv_perzone_price_medium

Looking at his charts, Price has been almost flawless from 50+ ft and has really struggled from 20 ft and in. He only surrendered 3 goals in October outside of the slot and almost half (12 of the 25 goals) were scored within 10 ft of the net. Contrast that to Tim Thomas who only faced 8 shot attempts in all of October from within 10 ft. and Martin Brodeur who faced only 12 shots AT THE GOAL in 236 more minutes (almost 4 full games). 

Depending on your perspective, his struggles could also be blamed on terrible special teams as 12 of the 25 goals he allowed in October occurred on the penalty kill (some may blame the penalty kill struggles on Price, I believe the video evidence below proves otherwise) resulting in a massive drag on his save percentage. The results between his even strength save percentage and penalty  save percentage is a staggering .268. From .935 five on five to .667 shorthanded.

 

Shotsperzone_halak_medium

Sv_perzone_halak_medium

Halak has been very dominant between 20-40 ft. allowing only one goal all season, but he has also been victimized by the Canadiens soft defense down low as his SV% below 20 ft. is only marginally better than Price's .692. Where Halak has outdistanced Price is his consistency. His penalty kill SV% and regular strength percentage have not suffered from wild swings like Price. Although his 5 on 5 is not in the .930s, he has maintained an .850+ special teams percentage, a huge improvement on Price's .667. Halak has been a much more consistent option for the Canadiens through October 2009-10. 

If the Canadiens can limit the shot opportunities below 20 ft. and improve their penalty kill, you will witness a spike in Price and Halak's numbers. Hockey is a team game and goaltending statistics are a reflection of team play. Can a superstar goaltender overcome defensive shortcomings? Yes, but not to the extent where he will lead the league statistically. Can an average goaltender look like a superstar when insulated in a strong defensive system? History has shown that answer to be yes. Rick Wamsley in 1982, Bob Froese in 1986, Byron Dafoe in 1999 and Roman Cechmanek in 2001 all had huge statistical years that were never duplicated on other teams. When you combine a superstar goaltender with a defensive coach you get Patrick Roy in 1989.

Unfortunately the Canadiens possess neither a superstar goaltender, nor an elite defensive coach. Carey Price has the potential to be a superstar, but at 22 is still midway through a steep learning curve. Halak at 24 has proven over the last 12 months that he is an NHL caliber goaltender, but has not shown that he can make the leap to the next level yet (and for those with short memories, Halak was a major question mark through October 2008).

GOALS AGAINST

Pricevshalak_oct_goals_medium

The Canadiens goaltenders allowed forty-six goals in October and while watching the games I rarely found fault with either goaltender. I could easily have just referenced my memory to make my points, but I decided I would go through each goal individually and try to assess blame. I tried to assess the goaltenders positioning. Were they playing too deep in the net? Were they over committing to the shooters? Were they over pursuing the play and creating opportunities while scrambling back in to the play? How was their gap control, puck tracking, anticipation and rebound control? Were they exposed because of defensive zone turnovers? Deflections? Poor defensive zone coverages? etc etc.

Through 46 goals I found 1 bad goal and 8 that were suspect. I considered a goal suspect if there was a screen involved but the goaltender hadn't battled through the screen, if a shot from in close was stoppable if the goaltender was at his sharpest (ie. Raymond off the wing in Vancouver. If Price was sharp, he has the ability to make the save. So even though it was a partial breakaway, more often than not I expect Price to make that save from that angle, but it can not be categorized as a bad goal) or if the goaltender made a small technical error.

I also tracked where the goals beat the goaltender. I illustrated it below with the five main zones + the zone across the bottom which represents goals scored into an empty net (cross crease feed or tap-in). It was interesting that all the heat Price takes for his glove hand that Halak was more vulnerable allowing over 30% of his goals high glove-side.

Video evidence below (Goals deemed bad or suspect are in bold.)

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1. Gill giveaway behind the net. Ponikoravsky one-time from the slot beats Price low stick side. No chance. 25 ft
2. 5 on 3 PP. Tomas Kaberle slap shot tipped in by Stajan at the side of the net. No chance. 9 ft 
3. 5 on 4 PP. Scramble in front of the net. Matt Stajan taps it into an empty net. No chance. 5 ft 
4. Point shot redirected. Tim Connolly pounces on loose puck and beats Price low stick side. 25 ft. 
5. Ryan Kesler breakaway from the blueline. Great move beats Price along the ice glove side. 2 ft. 
6. Mason Raymond in alone off the boards slides it through Price's 5-hole. Stoppable. 5 ft. 
7. 5 on 4 PP. Tic Tac Toe to Steve Bernier who had an open net. No chance. 9 ft. 
8. 5 on 4 PP. Price makes the initial save. Sedin all alone shovles it into an empty net. 10 ft. 
9. 2 on 0 breakaway. Price cheats pass and Henrik Sedin makes him pay beating him high glove side. 8 ft. 
10.  5 on 4 PP. Price stops initial point shot, Samuelsson puts the rebound through the 5-hole. 9 ft. 
11. Scramble in front of the net. Price commits to one shot and cannot recover. No help from the D. 8 ft. 
12. Mike Comrie wrist shot beats Price high glove side. Looked stoppable. 34 ft. 
13. 5 on 4 PP. Point shot tipped in low stick side. No chance. 21 ft. 
14. Defensive zone turnover leads to O'Sullivan alone in the slot. Beats Price low stick side. 28 ft. 
15. Hejduk shot deflected in off Gorges. Price may have stopped it if his stick was in position. 30 ft. 
16. Cumiskey throws the puck towards the front of the net. Deflects in off Belle's skate. No chance. 10 ft. 
17. Ryan O'Reilly out of the corner untouched, Price makes the save, but cannot stop the rebound. 11 ft. 
18. Chris Neil in the slot all alone. High glove side. No chance. 26 ft. 
19. Daniel Alfreddson one timer on a 5 on 3 powerplay. Low glove side. 31 ft. 
20Alex Kovalev all alone in the slot. Snapshot blocker side. 30 ft
21. 5 on 4 PP. Alex Goligoski shot from the point on the PP. No screen beats Price high glove side. 55 ft.
22. 
5 on 4 PP. Chris Kunitz clear cut breakaway from center beats Price 5-hole. 15 ft.
23. Kris Versteeg behind the goal shot deflects off Bergeron in between Price's pads beating him 5-hole. 8ft.
24. Cam Barker one-timer from the faceoff dot. Price is deep, shot beats him high glove side. 31 ft.
25. Patrick Sharp one-timer from the slot beats Price low glove side opposite to his momentum. 37ft


Halak_zones_medium 

1. Eric Nystrom in the slot unchecked. Snapshot beats Halak high glove side.  19 ft.
2. Slap shot from the point. Tipped in front by Nystrom beats Halak low stick side. 13 ft
3. Slap shot from the point off the post. Jarome Iginla bangs in rebound beating Halak high glove side. 19 ft.
4. Kronwall slapshot from the blueline through a screen beats Halak high stick side. 60 ft.
5. 
Colby Armstrong from the faceoff dot beats Halak low glove side. 25 ft. 
6. Halak gives the puck away behind the net to Josh Bailey allowing for an easy tap-in. 5 ft. 
7.
 Halak stops initial shot, Ansimov left alone and beats Halak high glove side. 6 ft.
8. Ales Kotalik left alone in the slot. Beats Halak high glove side. 14 ft.
9. Gilroy slapshot from the point. Halak may have been screened as he is beaten low stick side. 61 ft. 
10. Marian Gaborik breakaway from the blueline beats Halak 5 hole. 5 ft.
11. 5 on 4 PPG. Tambellini drives hard to the net. Halak is not set and exposes his 5 hole. 5 ft.
12. 
5 on 4 PPG. Spacek giveaway leads to a cross crease feed and an easy redirection for Jeff Tambellini.
13. Turnover. Guerin feeds Crosby all alone at the side of the net. One-timer beats Halak low-stick side. 17 ft. 
14. Halak stops initial shot, rebound to Sidney Crosby who beats a sprawled Halak top shelf glove side. 19 ft.
15. Halak stops point shot, scramble in front and Rupp puts home the rebound beating him low stick side. 5 ft. 
16. Crosby alone in front, spin-o-rama. Halak makes initial save hits Crosby's skate and trickles in 5-hole. 5 ft. 
17. 5 on 4 PP. Point shot rebound to Ponikoravsky in the slot who wraps it home low stick side by Halak. 15 ft. 
18. 5 on 4 PP. Lee Stempniak slap shot from the point beats a screened Halak high glove side. 54 ft. 
19. Cross crease feed to Ponikoravsky, beats Halak from a bad angle with a perfect shot high stick side. 19 ft.
20. 6 on 5. Kaberle takes a point shot that deflects off Hamrlik and Spacek to beat Halak low stick side. 63 ft

The October verdict: Patience is required. Patience for a Canadiens team integrating 10-12 new players. Patience for a team that is missing its only legitimate All-Star. Patience for a coach who is still installing a new system and approach and finally patience for the two kids between the pipes. 

 

Chris Boyle is a frequent contributor to Eyes On The Prize and goes by the handle Wamsley. 
He is a lifelong Habs fan and the editor of
 fantasysensehockey.net.

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Blown away

Absolutely amazing, well written and more research then I could have imagined.

by EAintabi on Nov 9, 2009 9:22 AM EST reply actions  

Well done, sir!

Well done, you are a machine! The only other stat I’d like to see is team offensive output for. Halak has a superior win%, but how many of those games were won because we just scored more on the night? (and yes, I realize we only have one regulation win) It just seems the team seems to score more for Jaro, whereas Price seems to need to keep the team in the game more. That may be one of the most telling stats in the win/loss ratio.

by Darksyde on Nov 9, 2009 9:37 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

That would be my suspicion. They have essentially identical SV% numbers (more so now that we’ve played a week of November — .894 Price vs. .893 Halak), yet one has given up half a goal more per game and is six games back of the other. Playing against weaker opposition would definitely be part of that, as would offensive output or just poorer defensive play in front of Price. Check out how many more shot attempts Price faced in 15 more minutes of ice time — almost 50. That works out to 56.7 shot attempts against per 60 minutes for Price, versus 52.0 shot attempts against per 60 — nearly five shot attempts per game difference. That’s a lot.

Really, though, Price’s .667 SHSV% in October is unsustainably bad. That has to recover to a more realistic level at some point (it’s already up to .778, per NHL.com), and when it does, I think you’ll see him pull ahead based on a superior EVSV%.

Great research, great graphics, great post. Rec’d. Thanks, Chris.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Nov 9, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m blown away by the amount of research here.

The worry I have about Price’s “unsustainably bad” SHSV% is that it carried over from the end of last season. On the bright side, his very high ESSV% was also in evidence from last season. So this trend has been going on for a while. I find it doubtful that Carey Price is a substandard SH goaltender (especially since he would also seem to be a very strong ES goaltender!) so that points to a problem with the special teams in front of him that might have carried over from last season despite the turnover in personnel. That high ESSV% really does point towards Price being the superior goaltender — and a really good, if really unlucky, one to boot.

Price vs. Halak really demonstrates that wins are a team stat though. How many Price has had more than 2 goals to work with? 3 times?

by MathMan on Nov 9, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but Price was also hurt last year, and never given a chance to recover. It seems to me almost impossible that he’ll put up that bad a SHSV% over an entire season — in recent times, even the bad SHSV% values for starter/platoon types were more around .850 — but it’s certainly possible he’ll finish with a poor number.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Nov 10, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Superb

Fantastic article. Thank-you for taking the time to pore over the evidence for us and to provide a balanced assessment free from hyperbole or worse (the whole Price Camp vs. Halak camp has gotten beyond old).
I’ll be sure to read your analysis from each and every upcoming month.

Kudos again.

by subdoxastic on Nov 9, 2009 9:53 AM EST reply actions  

Finally! An objective view on this whole matter

I live in Montreal and I know what it is to be on Team Price. When the team loses and Price was in goals, everybody I know who knows I’m a Price fan cannot wait to let me know about Price’s loss. And I tell point out to them the defensive holes. But they dont listen.

So I’m putting your article on my facebook page and show everyone I know that a win or a loss belongs to the whole team no matter who was in the nets.

P.S. Can’t wait to read your next article on the goalies’ assessment.

by jmallet18 on Nov 9, 2009 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

Great Work Chris!

I myself am a statistics fanatic, on that note.. Amazing Work! very accurate and time consuming.

One question, from watching the goals allowed by each goalie and the review you had given, curious to as why Price had the “no chance” and none for Halak?

by jon paine on Nov 9, 2009 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks jon paine

I started out listing them as no chance, but the amount of goals they had no chance on was so large that I just stopped doing it. I never got around to editing it out.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 9, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I figured.. though, I didn’t want to assume that you got lazy :P

I will be sending some statistics in the next few days to Robert. Habs vs Former Habs via Xbox 360. I will be using a 20 game data bank just to get the constants out of play. I’m just trying to find which defensive style is currently being used; this will affect the defensive players movements.

by jon paine on Nov 9, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s going to be fun Jon!

by Robert L on Nov 9, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow...

This is why I love your site, Robert… Fantastic work, Chris!
The only thing I’m not so sure about is the analysis of bad/suspect/good goals. That looks a little subjective to me. But it’s great to see someone finally taking the time to use stats and really analyze the play of both goalies.

http://softeuropean.wordpress.com

by Grrrreg on Nov 9, 2009 11:08 AM EST reply actions  

It is subjective

That is why I provided the video evidence.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 9, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Shame the flag of objectivity can't fly throughout

I love the statistical approach throughout, it’s brilliant. I think there’s some really pretty pictures and stats work to be proud of here.

For me, though, it’s just a shame that you can’t dissociate completely from one of the camps. At one point, you talk about sticking with the guy who has the higher ceiling (implying you know who that is) and then you go on to say:

Carey Price has the potential to be a superstar, but at 22 is still midway through a steep learning curve. Halak at 24 has proven over the last 12 months that he is an NHL caliber goaltender, but has not shown that he can make the leap to the next level yet (and for those with short memories, Halak was a major question mark through October 2008).

It’s just a slip probably, but an unfortunate one. I presume the basis for the assumptions you made in that statement are the opinions of scouts from 5 and 7 years ago, with some other stuff rolled in.

Anyway, not to worry too much, just an observation. It’s still an excellent piece. probably the post of the season anywhere for the Habs.

by Topham on Nov 9, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions  

I never claimed to not have an opinion

I actually wrote a long piece a month ago promoting Price as the starter and the better goaltenderhere.

My goal was to present the statistical evidence in an unbiased way. I did not manipulate stats. I showed video evidence of every goal. Feel free to disagree on soft or not.

I am also not a member of Team Price. I want both to suceed, I just want the fanbase to stop dumping on each other. They are both members of the Canadiens and since neither has differentiated themselves from each other over the long haul, it seems silly to have people attack either of them.

Just because I believe that Price has a higher upside does not make me biased.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 9, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Good man

Well done for owning up. I didn’t know your other piece.

I’m not sure whether hit is a point of opinion, but I happen to think that believing Price does have a higher upside is a bias. That’s not to say though that your analysis is biased – just fraught with difficulty.

by Topham on Nov 9, 2009 11:37 AM EST reply actions  

I think he has shown at 20-22 to have had much more dominant stretches than Halak,
he has also shown the tendency to implode to a much more destructive degree.

His career has been full of streaks. I have yet to see Halak tear off a streak of 25-30 games where he posts a .920+ SV%, below 2.50 GAA and put up a 20-5-5 record. Price has done it twice.

Everybody tends to forget that Price is playing his 3rd season in the NHL when most of his peers were either rookies or years away from the NHL. He has much to learn.

I will change my opinion when Halak gives me reason to do so. He had a chance against Philly to take the starting job in the 2008 playoffs and responded with a 3.30 GAA and a .880 SV%.
When Price was injured in January last year, although Halak went 6-3-0, he had a 3.50 GAA and an .888 SV%. Outside of his 7-6 record and 2.80 GAA and .927 SV% over the last 2 months of last season, he has not been dominant.

I have seen Price be statistically dominant for 3 month stretches (early 2008, late 2008). I have yet to see that from Halak. Until then, my opinion will not change.

One is streaky with extreme highs and lows, the other is more consistent and falls in the middle.

At the end of the day, they have both ended up in the same place.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 9, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Brilliant Read

Great job Chris!! I am going to link to this in my School of Block article today, as this is a must-read for all fantasy managers that own either goalie.

One thing I would add about shot distance is that shots in close can sometimes actually be easier to stop on average because of elevation (lack thereof), especially for butterfly goalies. Shots from beyond the slot are sometimes harder because of traffic in front and deflections, screens and whatnot (pucks get knocked down or tipped upwards).

But you already did a great job summarizing each and every goal against, so it’s nothing you didn’t already cover =).

Excellent job and the graphics are a great touch. Keep up the great work!!

by TheGoalieGuild on Nov 9, 2009 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks for the compliments.

It is true that some shots in close are easier to stop, but when you look at shots on goal, a 165 foot shot on goal registers as one shot as well as a rebound from 4 feet. Without somebody logging every individual shot and difficulty, you have to make the assumption based on where the majority of goals are scored, that the closer to the net, the more likely a goal.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 9, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. This is why I often say that the best type of fantasy goalie analysis is that which is done on a game-by-game, minute-by-minute basis. The more goaltending you watch, the better your fantasy decisions will end up being.

Just out of curiosity did you piece the goal-by-goal youtube videos together yourself?

by TheGoalieGuild on Nov 9, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

It is true.

I pulled the clips from NHL.com and pieced them together.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 9, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Some of the close rebound goals are by a shot from outside the circle, shots from the blue line also produce a higher chance of a bigger rebound and its equal opposite shots from up close, but that would be a whole new stats category :P

by jon paine on Nov 9, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Rotate goalies 50/50

Great job Chris.
I’ve posted before the season began on Robert’s site here that we should split the goaltending duties 50/50 like the old days of Hayward/Roy in the late 80’s.
It appears we do not have a Number 1 goalie yet until the season progresses, and as you’ve stated, patience, patience, patience!
Can’t blame the demise for the season on our goalies, we have more problems than goaltending on our team to worry about.

We will win the Cup only with a mature Carey Price in the nets

by RetroMikey on Nov 9, 2009 3:12 PM EST reply actions  

Jeebus

I’m in love with those charts. I wish I had a tenth of your graphic skills.

Shameless indirect plug: Corey Pronmann used my compilations of scoring chances to look at what kind of hand Price and Halak were dealt by the team… Have a peek at it.

There is a massive amount of stats being pumped into the hockey blogosphere right now, and it’s good to see that people aren’t simply cranking out tables with bullet points (well, that’s what I do, but I’m lazy), but using those data points to actually shed another light on some questions that may otherwise suffer death by a thousand cliche.

But it’s legwork. As you said on your site, compiling data takes time, it’s a grind. but it’s worth it.

Keep up the good work, and a glove tap to Robert for giving a soapbox to such worthy contributors!

by Olivier on Nov 9, 2009 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

Timing of goals

Thanks very much for the excellent analysis!

My apologies if this has already been addressed and I missed it, but I’m curious to know if you think it might be useful to track when Price and Halak let in goals. I don’t have the stats, but my feeling is that Halak is more likely to make big saves early on in the game and get the team going, whereas Price tends to let other teams get the first goal, shifting the momentum in the opposite direction. Of course even if this were true it would have to be qualified by your observation that Halak has been beating teams with lower win percentages, but I still think it would add to our understanding of what’s going on.

I like your argument that a middling team should focus on the goalie with more potential, but my conversion to Team Halak occurred at the end of the last season and during the playoffs, when presumably the only thing that mattered was doing whatever it took to win. Though the clear choice at the time was Halak, night after night Price was inexplicably chosen instead. I suspect that the Price/Halak controversy is largely propelled by the lingering resentment that fans have from that strange time.

I’d also like to point out that claims based on a belief in Price’s potential are not falsifiable. While it’s useful to look at performance to date and current or historical comparables, those numbers still don’t (and can’t) amount to anything like proof of potential, though they can be a basis for hope. What do you think would have to happen for one to abandon a belief that short-term success can be sacrificed for the sake of Price’s long-term potential?

Thanks again for the great work.

by Jkafka on Nov 9, 2009 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

Thought you might like this

Excellent analysis, Chris. And the timing of the article couldn’t have been better given Halak’s douchebag of an agent’s Twitter performance on Saturday night.

I couldn’t help but think of a few of your arguments when I saw this article:

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/hockey/story/1323568.html

Shock, surprise, Clemmensen is finding life more difficult out of New Jersey and is complaining about Florida’s terrible defensive coverage down low.

Hockey blogging can't get any flatter.

by saskhab on Nov 9, 2009 4:33 PM EST reply actions  

Awesome write up and analysis Chris...

…and solid interview on Melnick today.

Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.

by KingJafi on Nov 9, 2009 5:22 PM EST reply actions  

Chris may be uploading the audio later this evening.

by Robert L on Nov 9, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Great article!

Wow. This is impressive, Chris.
I’ve never seen a detailed anaylsis like this.

Regarding the contoversy. The reason there is a controversy is because there is not enough good news to write about the club.

Disregarding the play of the goaltenders themselves, the team is playing better in front of Halak. Price clearly has more pressure on him and I think the team also feels that.

by nyhabsfan on Nov 9, 2009 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

offensive output for the goalies

Someone asked earlier about the offensive output for Price and Halak
Halak took part in 7 starts in which the team scored a total of 22 goals, which equals a 3,14 goal per game average.
As for Price, he took part in 10 games, in which the team scored a total of 16 goals, for an average of 1,60 goal per game only.
As you see, there’s a huge difference between the 2.

by Audrey11 on Nov 10, 2009 1:12 AM EST reply actions  

It is quite a discrepancy. For the Price bashers, what would his numbers be with the same goal support?

by Robert L on Nov 10, 2009 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

You should see the numbers of playing behind a lead.

In 619 minutes of play the Canadiens have staked Price to a lead for 71:36,
41:36 of which were in the Boston game on Thursday. They have scored 16 goals for him while
he was in the game.

In 421 minutes of play the Canadiens have stakes Halak to a lead for 173:45
and scored 20 goals for him while he was in the game.

Also, outside of the Sabres game, Price isn’t giving up early goals. Most of them are in the last 1/3 of the first period.

This is just a flawed hockey team right now, the goalies are the least of their problems.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 10, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Impressive ...but still wrong

Hi,
I just read this article, so i’m not sure if you play goalie or not. I’m a goalie and even though in your stats, you say that some shots are unstoppable, I disagree.

Carey price is selling out..maybe too much so..on some shots. So although, they seem unstoppable, carey has over-committed to shots. It shows his “all or nothing” attitude at the moment. Maybe that has to do with insecurity or not. Halak is smoother, calmer and covering the 2nd option very well.
90% of goaltending is about positioning. And Carey, is trying to overcompensate by overcomitting to shots. This worries me…because, if he continues this, he’ll never develop into a world class goaltender. He’ll become Jose Theodore – it’ll work for 1 year, but then everyone figures it out.

Irregardless of goal support, Carey has to fix himself mentally. Some of the goals that you say are unstoppable, i say – “why was price so far too the right on that shot?” Why did let such a big rebound go?" Many little things he still doesn’t do right.

just my humble opinion, from an exp. goalie.

by Hot_girls_only on Nov 10, 2009 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

I disagree

I have also played goal and have studied the position extensively and was looking for exactly what you are talking about.

I scrubbed back and forth over the video to look for exactly that and when he did commit, I felt they were reasonable decisions based on the position of the play and the expectation of the forwards maintaining their check. I checked for rebound control, I checked to see if he was square to the shooter, I checked for his gap control to see if he was maximizing his angle assuring he covered as much of the net as possible, I looked to make sure he did not lean forward in his butterfly, etc etc.

You are entitled to your opinion, I do not share it.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 10, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

my 2 cents

Some people have drawn attention to the fact that the team seems to produce more offence with halak in the net. I agree that this may be because they’re up agains inferior opponents, but i think it may also be related to the styles of play each goaltender employs. I notice that price has developed a tendency to overplay the puck, often leading to confusion behind the net. He’s out there almost every time the puck comes deep in his end. The resulting confusion slows down the team’s ability to transition out of the defensive zone because it allows the opponent more time to set up. Sometimes it works, when price makes a long pass to a forward at the offensive blue line, but that’s a very low percentage play, and to have forwards anticipating those kinds of plays will only take away from the team’s offensive consistency in the long run. Mostly it leaves the net open unnecessarily, which (in my OPINION-i have no real evidence for this) causes the forwards and D for the habs to instinctively go to a defencive mindset. This, in turn, ruins the rythm for the breakout, which on occasion has looked really good (i am put in mind of the creative rushes we saw from the senators under jacques martin’s regime).

by hbusz on Nov 10, 2009 12:34 PM EST reply actions  

Even if that is true, it is probably attributable to essentially four to five new faces who do not know his tendencies.

But in the long run a goaltender playing the puck saves a defenseman a ton of wear and tear and will ultimately be beneficial for them.

Watching every game, their transition game is almost fully reliant on the forwards carrying the puck themselves or
dependant on neutral zone turnovers. They miss Markov immensely. The majority of Halak’s offensive help came in
a win over the Leafs, Isles and Rangers, that accounts for 13 of the 20 goals of support he received. Only one of those teams can be considered a strong opponent at the time he played them.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 10, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

PS

thanks for taking the time to put together such a comprehensive comparison- for a while there i thought this was the ONE argument the internet couldn’t resolve…
oh, and it’s probably clear by now that i’m on team halak, if only because i feel like he never gets the benefit of the doubt

by hbusz on Nov 10, 2009 12:37 PM EST reply actions  

Still fighting the good fight

Hey Chris:

I’ve already written thanks and awe to you above about the hell of a job you did researching the stats et al. in this piece.

Wanted to say a quick thanks to you for continuing the use of logic and reason as the discussion inevitably shifted away from the objective stats that show how close the two goalers are, and instead began to focus on a few of the other themes that seem to surround the two goalies— namely the old chestnuts “The team plays better in front of Halak, ergo they have more confidence in him” and the always giggle inducing “Price lets in early, middle, late, momentum deflating goals”. My personal favourite is the one above detailing how Price’s stickhandling ability is in fact an achille’s heal. Personally, I love Price’s developing puck handling game and hope to enjoy seeing it develop further (hopefully for many more seasons). There’s me outing myself regarding my bias :)

But when people make their case for one goalie based on their ad hominem (“He never earned it!”) and specious attacks ("Look at his eyes) on the other netminder, you’ve gotta be prepared for the backlash when the numbers show them nearly tied in performance. Afterall, if Price sucks as they claim, and Halak’s numbers are roughly equal then by the power of the transitive property….

Just wanted to let you know that this Habs fan appreciates all the work. Lord knows it can get exhausting being a fan of the team and a reader of other fans’ thoughts. Yours are greatly appreciated.

by subdoxastic on Nov 10, 2009 6:47 PM EST reply actions  

La Presse!

Hey Robert! Hey Chris! I just wanted to tell you both that La Presse has mentionned you and this very article in today’s paper! Congrats!

by Flying Toaster on Nov 10, 2009 9:35 PM EST reply actions  

Here’s the link

La controverse déclenchée par Allan Walsh, qui n’a pas retourné les appels de La Presse, aura eu le mérite d’encourager tout le monde à jeter un regard différent sur la performance des deux gardiens du Canadien.

À ce titre, la fiche victoires-défaites de Carey Price est quelque peu réductrice, surtout cette saison.

Une analyse du blogueur Chris Boyle, sur le site Habs Eyes on the Prize, montre que Price et Halak sont tous deux victimes d’une défensive poreuse qui les laisse à eux-mêmes lorsque la menace adverse vient à 20 pieds ou moins.

Selon Boyle, une meilleure couverture défensive tout près du gardien ainsi qu’une amélioration du jeu en infériorité numérique aiderait grandement les statistiques des deux jeunes gardiens

by Robert L on Nov 10, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Team 990

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

For all those interested in listening to my interview on Team 990, here is the link.

by Chris Boyle on Nov 14, 2009 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

haha nice interview there Chris, very well put and hopefully people start seeing it from your point of view.
I for one have always been a jesus price fan and know the walls he has to climb, we just all needed to back him up, halak too :)

by jon paine on Nov 15, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

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