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Around SBN: How A Letter From Tom Coughlin Helped One Fan's Recovery

I've long felt that the Lions In Winter site is the smartest and best written Habs blog on the net, barring HIO. It's concise and pointed, and backs what it says with ace pieces such as the one linked here.

Covering all angles of opinion and debate, the "Kostitsyn vs Gainey: Habs Won't Win The Way They've Been Going" article is a must read. A sample quote to kick start:

"Sergei's beef, which several people see eye to eye with, is that the player has been wrongly overlooked. Anyone with a modicum of hockey watching experience can see he brings much more to the table than Greg Stewart, Matt D'Agostini, Kyle Chipchura or Georges Laraque, and probably more than Pacioretty, Latendresse and Maxim Lapierre. To put it succinctly, Sergei believes as do some others that he is the 6th most talented forward in the whole organization. He believes Gainey is cutting off his nose to spite his face."

over 2 years ago A_new_eotp_logo_tiny Robert L 7 comments 0 recs  | 

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The article was kind of missing some essential ingredients.

1. Kostitsyn although never charged, was running around with the mob.
2. He missed a team bus to Quebec.
3. He has continued to throw tantrums when demoted.

This is not about getting him to work hard, it is about reigning in an individual who feels he is above the team. Chipchura, D’Agostini, Stewart, Lapierre, Latendresse have all done what they are told. When they are sent down, they go, work on their game and hope for a call up. This is about EGO.

Chris Chelios has nothing to do with this. If you are going to bring up Chelios and his behaviour and then claim the Habs would have traded Kane, what about Guy Lafleur? Why did the Habs keep Guy Lafleur around? He was running around cheating on his wife, almost killing himself in a drunk driving accident, essentially a fixture on crescent street every night. Why didn’t they trade him? It is disingenuous to bring up Corson and Chelios and ignore the stance on Lafleur. It paints a picture with convenient facts.

This is about “sense of entitlement”. Kostitsyn needs to grow up, if he is so right, why hasn’t his brother stepped up and defended him?

The Habs just wiped out half their roster in one fell swoop, I am supposed to believe this disagreement is about talent? The coach who got fired claims “wait and see what happens after the season” and is proven a prophet and people still don’t get the picture?

This is about changing the culture, and Sergei either gets with the program, or moves on. Simple as that. Talent does not win championships, commitment to a common goal does, and Sergei’s actions are all of a selfish nature.

I am not endorsing a trade. If Sergei wants to forego his 4-5 year commitment to the North American game to go to the KHL, let me know how it goes when you get back, because we will still hold your rights. DO NOT deal him for 10 cents on the dollar, HE HAS NO LEVERAGE.

There is more to hockey than talent, if there wasn’t, then Alexandre Daigle and Pavel Brendl would be All-Stars.

www.fantasysensehockey.net

by Wamsley on Oct 24, 2009 10:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting. You think they are waiting to establish a new team culture before they bring him back? The rangers tonight are a nice test, because it really looks like the team is finding a stride, collective-play wise. But once the structure is established (and the new captain named?), it’s easier to bring back talented problem childs.

by Olivier on Oct 24, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think they are waiting to establish the new culture, they have already done it.

You don’t jettison half your core for zero reason. Martin is going to demand accountability off and on the ice. He has been coaching for 20+ years, he is not like Carbo, he already knows what his style is, he has seen 20+ years of player BS, excuses, lack of accountability etc.

He didn’t leave a GM position to go behind the bench and be told how it is by a 22 year old who doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground. The ONLY move is to show Sergei who is boss, you don’t deal him and get burnt by him yearly when he finally grows up and realizes he was a douche at 22.

I have zero sympathy for players who put themselves over the team and organization. When you quit TWICE in a month, it says more than enough about your character to me.
You knew somebody just like him when you were a kid, he was the one who after not getting what he wanted, picked up his net/ball and went home, screwing over the rest of the neighbourhood kids.

www.fantasysensehockey.net

by Wamsley on Oct 24, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wamsley, I get what you’re saying wholly, but you’re defending your point with alot of stretches here.

Sergei was not running around with the mob. He knew one guy, a friend who helped him out with living in Montreal, who unfortunately had drug ties. Sergei had no idea what this dude was involved in. That’s far from running around with the mob.

Yes he missed a team bus, but it’s something that happens occasionally. The fact that it happened to him while his status with the team was in question pretty well earned him his ticket to Hamilton once more.

The tantrums….I glad he’s pissed. I’ll take a team full of players that get pissed over such things. I have a problem with how he has handled some things, but he’s showing how much playing in the NHL means to him. He should be upset. He should also be way more mature about it, no doubt, but he is what he is, and you can’t fast track maturity. It’s important to note that we are all judging on something without being privy to the entire story.

The Chelios comparison at Lions In Winter has merit. His shenanigans hit the papers and eventually forced his trading, one the team ought to have regretted for 15 years. Lafleur of course, did similar things, but they were not publicly reported in the papers and talk shows. Guy, being Quebec born AND the team’s star player, was protected like you cannot believe. It wasn’t until his car accident in the 1980’s that much of his nightlife tales came to light. You can’t say it’s disingenuous to ignore Lafleur’s antics. He was an icon by then. Comparisons with him to any other players have no fit.

The one real time comparison in Sergei’s case is to Grabovski, who couldn’t find a spot with the team but was still able to prove he could play in the NHL.

Grabovski still could not fit on the Habs top two lines at center, Sergei, on the wing can, and is needed.

True, it’s all about his entitlement and he does need to grow up. Maybe he needs to feel that he is wanted by the team. So far, Gainey has managed to twice convince him to return to the Bulldogs, so it can be assumed he’s being told something or other.

As far as trade demands and promises go, I’ll have to see and hear those words straight from Gainey or Sergei’s lips to believe them. There’s still that fake Facebook Sergei running about and taking interviews!

The disagreement isn’t about talent, it’s about dedication and work ethic. Remember that Sergei was sent down to Hamilton last season, just as the team was beginning to free fall. He had been ineffective under Carbonneau up until that point. There had been much on ice indiscipline. Gainey coached him for what, two or three games beyond that point? The cleansing of last year’s team, if it can be put that way, was in removing veteran’s with strong voices. All of the kids were kept in the fold.

It’s also important to note that Sergei is the one and only player at this point that can be shuffled back and forth from Hamilton without passing through waivers. The only way the Canadiens can lose him is if he bolts to the KHL…but is he even allowed to play there while under contract elsewhere?

That Carbonneau quote, and he’s clarified it himself a bunch in the french papers. The “see what happens” was just generalization, and meant nothing in particular. In was given more in response to seing how the team will do and what will happen in the playoffs than anything else. Of course, since he’s said it, people have tacked all their own thoughts onto it. There’s no prophecy involved in sensing that changes were coming, even if that were what Carboneau was alluding to.

In the past, Carbonneau has been one of the team’s bad boys. Look up his dealings with Bob Berry his first season and his own invlovement with Chelios, Corson, Keane and Skrudland off the ice in later years. Carbo was no choirboy and if ever there was a coach who understands that dressing room harmony is more affected by losses on the ice that vice versa, it’s him. Every team, winning or losing has it’s splits and factions, it’s an inevitable truth of sporting teams. There’s always a player or three that are apart from the group. Sergei is actually quite liked by his teammates. His youthful exhuberence has been found amusing.

Folks are always taking speculation and twisting it to suit their views. They grasp at straws rather than trying to develop an understanding of how things truly are. The media, in search of a story, promote this dressing room ideal to ridiculous proportions because it is the one area of access fans don’t have. Everyone then bases all kinds of thoughts on nothing but gossip and garbage rumour.

Have you seen the Gomez / Sergei fight story? There you go….total manufactured b.s. by some creative thinking guy wanting a moment on a pedestal. Just plain sad.

While Gainey’s changes could be interpreted as being about altering the culture of the team, it was just as much about retooling a chunk of the lineup that had gone as far as it could and could not win more.

Was it about cleansing the room?

Some people think so, but then again, who was the biggest problem last season? Gainey wanted Kovalev back and made an offer.

It’s true of course that talent alone does guarantee much without conviction, it’s still a key element from which winning is built. Lots of teams filled with inner turmoil during a season have gone on to win Cups by harnessing all their assets and differences and pointing it in one direction. The ’86 Habs under Perron were an absolute mess heading to the playoffs. The winning on ice, thanks in no small part to bad boys Roy and Lemieux, translated into a better atmosphere.

The bottom line is that every team has it’s delinquents and badasses. It’s almost part of the winning chemistry.

Sergei seems to me like a player and person with all kinds of vinegar and fight in him. He’ll do whatever it takes to get there, and that is why everyone liked him in the beginning. He still has those traits, and perhaps after this lesson, he can use them to help the team.

And don’t kid yourself, there’s a dozen teams ready to pounce on his talent in a nanosecond. He’s got all kinds of leverage, but he’s hesitating to fully employ it. Or maybe he isn’t. Who truly knows! Look at the cases of Avery, Heatley, etc. They all found takers despite weighty contracts.

The Habs seem to have badly mismanaged some assets, and here’s an opportunity for them to think outside the box. Sometimes, a forward thinking organization just has to tolerate a 22 year old acting his age when the hammer fails to work. If the kid has his place in the lineup, give it to him. The rest can be a work in progress where it matters most.

by Robert L on Oct 24, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is really unimportant if he had mob ties or not, it wasn’t mentioned in the article, neither was missing a team bus. Those are major factors in this story. As you just alluded to, Roy, Carbo, Keane, Skrudland all being bad boys off the ice and not being shipped immediately out of town, contradicting the point that the Habs jettison anybody who causes waves off the ice and does not represent the Canadien way.

Lions in Winter was bemoaning the talent. I don’t care about the talent, I have seen way to many talented players do nothing. As a coach, I have seen 1 to 2 individuals destroy a room. FIght and vinegar can be just as destructive as endearing to a room.

All the other stuff is speculation. On your part, on my part, on the medias part. But the thing that is NOT speculation, he QUIT TWICE. The fact remains that he is acting extremely selfish. Bringing him up to the Canadiens does nothing but enable that behaviour. I am going to punish you, you are going to freak out, I am going to give you what you want? Yeah, that is the path to success.

Thousands of players with NHL TALENT have paid their dues in the minor leagues. Thousands of players have been disappointed about a demotion and felt they were better than the players kept in the NHL. Thousands of players have shut their mouth and worked harder.

If you think a player who is not UFA eligible for another five years holds a ton of leverage, you are entitled to that opinion. It is of zero importance how many teams want him. Heatley has two 50 goal seasons, two 40 goal seasons and a 39 goal season under his belt, he is IRREPLACEABLE on the Senators top line, so how that relates is beyond me. Avery was wanted by ONE team, a team that enjoyed success with him 4 months earlier and acquired him for essentially free.

What is his leverage that he isn’t fully employing? KHL? Go to the KHL, he can’t play anywhere else in the NHL without going through the Canadiens. How is that leverage? He isn’t employing it because he probably doesn’t want to go to the KHL.
He has to make nice with the guy who will ultimately decide his future.

You guys can sympathize with his plight all you want, he quit 2 times, not once. I can forgive one as youthful indiscretion, but once he did it twice he lost any compassion for his position. The kid is 22 years old, he is playing in one of the greatest cities in North America, for one of the most storied franchises in the history of sport with his BIG BROTHER and I am supposed to sympathize? Poor Sergei, he is a 7th rounder who has had to play 54 games in the AHL, boo f@#king hoo. He is showing zero respect for the organization, yet is demanding it in return?

Gainey is parenting right now, and Kostitsyn is acting like a child.

I don’t think it is “thinking outside the box” to reward a player for quitting twice.

www.fantasysensehockey.net

by Wamsley on Oct 24, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I bet if Ronald Corey had been in charge in 1981, Lafleur would’ve been traded. That’s a key point to remember: Corey was the instigator of a lot of that “clean living” bullshit from the 80s and 90s.

SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.

by Doogie2K on Oct 24, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

An elaboration of the point I tried to make on L.I.W.

Hi Robert:

Glad this debate is getting the attention I feel it deserves.

On L.I.W. I posted some rather strong words about my feelings toward the way that Sergei has been handled. Suffice it to say, I was unimpressed.

My position is based on a little bit of experience I have working in classrooms. An effective teacher is clear about the rules and consequences of actions by students, yes— that is a given. However, most pedagogical theory these days (I really don’t want to get into a pissing match about whether or not the current education system has gone to hell in a handbasket, so please let’s save that one for another day) encourages teachers to adopt a student-centered approach to interacting with young folks. This is how you get their attention and keep their interest. Furthermore, this allows the teacher to properly track and define the student’s progress. Cookie cutter approaches are out, and students once they realize that consequences are predictable for poor actions while good behaviour is rewarded (as defined by the student’s continued success and growth) are generally fairly amenable to pulling with the team and not against it.

I was pissed when it seemed that the organization was more than happy to allow the media to run endless spots on Sergei being called out in practice by Martin. This, without any response by the organization to clarify or take control of the issue, only made this crude attempt at what many feel is a much needed behaviour modification program for Sergei even more bush league.

Either the organization (I’m not interested in differentiating between Gainey and Martin at this time) decided that Sergei wasn’t worth it and could be publicly humiliated for the benefit of a team concept, (the ethical implications of this I leave for others to suss out) or they messed up big time in their approach to harnessing Sergei’s talent, competitive nature, and psychological make-up. The Habs have managed to put themselves into a situation that not only distracts from their collective focus, but one that without some very tricky negotiations is going to end up lose/lose for everybody.

My grandmother made me a Habs fan. I owe her a debt of gratitude for what she gifted me. "But sometimes, I swear to friggin’ Chreeist!" (I’m channelling her here) If each and every player who dons the CH has to be the current reincarnation of some supposed saint from a cinderella past then I might as well give up being a Habs fan. It’s either that or get all warm and fuzzy with the idea that it’s okay to cheer for a team that fails to develop and nurture young talents for the benefit of both the players and the team. I just don’t think that the delusional approach of expecting every single player to be motivated by ship shod bullying tactics is going to work for me, or work at all in the real world.

Cheers!

by subdoxastic on Oct 24, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

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